Questions on involuntary body movements

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This topic contains 30 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  Samuel 5 years, 6 months ago.

Viewing 15 posts - 16 through 30 (of 31 total)
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  • #2477

    Blake Barton
    Keymaster

    Hi Samuel,

    I really am not very familiar with Dzogchen, but are you saying that the goal is not awakening to the true nature of reality?

    Blake

    #2525

    Darlene T
    Member

    Hello Samuel,
    I am most interested in your posts and the helpful responses of the teachers. Looking at the trajectory of your posts, it does seem important that there is some discernment between the wonderful experiences and results of involuntary movements however unusual…in contrast with specific or non specific health conditions that need attention. Overall, in piti experiences, it is quite simply your body’s own energetic opening and clearing internal and energetic pathways that lead to greater well being. Of course many are a bit fearful not knowing what might be happening to them. My practice is to say yes and not bear down on them to stop them…simply receive and experience. As far as your practice of Dzogchen not ending in dispassion…I am very curious should you decide to say more…In particular, what is your practice in the practice of Dzogchen?

    #2785

    Samuel
    Member

    Given my health, posting on here is rather inconvenient. The result is that it will take time for me to respond to your posts.

    In response to the question on dispassion.
    Because I’ve never had access to a Dzogchen teacher I am highly unqualified to speak of Dzogchen. I am even more unqualified to discuss the end results. That said, I will try to answer your question anyways.
    Basically, according to Dzogchen passion is not inherently problematic. When we integrate passion with the non-dual non-conceptual state we will experience it as raw energy arising out of emptiness and lacking intrinsic meaning. The result is that emotional energy can be harnessed strategically if you know what you’re doing. To give an example, public speakers who try to use nervousness strategically rather than get rid of it tend to be better speakers. To give another example, according to brain science sadness enhances one’s ability to pick up on details and think analytically.

    To convey the same idea in different words, in Dzogchen one learns how to not be intoxicated by passion rather than how to get rid of it. The experience of passion acquires the same flavor as not experiencing passion

    • This reply was modified 6 years ago by  Samuel.
    #2787

    Samuel
    Member

    In response to Blake’s post:
    no, that is not what I’m saying at all. Before explaining though, there’s something I need to clarify. Before a person is qualified to practice Dzogchen it is absolutely necessary that they have had a temporary experience of the non-duality of emptiness and form and the ability to reenter that non-dual state. The actual practice is about learning how to remain in the non-dual state. The result is that Dzogchen has a form of preliminary practice which induces a strong enough experience of non-duality for one to begin practicing Dzogchen (without inducing an insight experience).

    To add further clarification, when I was referring to the Dzogchen version of concentration meditation I was referring to the preliminary practice’s version of concentration meditation (and not the formless absorptions).

    #2792

    Samuel
    Member

    In response to Darlene asking about Dzogchen practice:

    Dzogchen has a reputation for being near impossible to learn without a teacher. For that reason, instead of trying to explain Dzogchen on my own and running the risk of spreading misconceptions I have decided to provide links to useful resources:

    http://arobuddhism.org/community/an-uncommon-perspective.html
    http://arobuddhism.org/community/dzogchen.html
    https://approachingaro.org/dzogchen-toc

    #2793

    Darlene T
    Member

    Hello Samuel,

    Thank you for the links…I’ve checked out the first one and find it quite good…very representative of Buddha Dharma in a very accessible form. Dzogchen, Mahamudra, and Zen, although they are of different lineages point to non dual awareness. In the case of Mahamudra it is the culmination of the trajectory of practices…whereas in Zen or sudden enlightenment schools…the first practice. I still remain somewhat confused about your statement about Dzogchen not ending in in dispassion…No doubt the suttas have been interpreted in a myriad of ways…but I don’t think dispassion has been the intent. Mindfulness yes, Dis-identification yes; Equanimity yes! In non dual awareness there is neither passion nor dispassion…simply the pure potentiality of either…and based on our situation and the wholesome or unwholesome response of the ego function we respond with passion or otherwise….and… if we respond as advised by the eightfold path, chances are we contribute to the down going of distress. The TMI walks us through the terrain of the minds formations with or without passion. In many respects, TMI is pointing to peripheral awareness and attention which brings us right into the present. If while we are peripherally aware, and we try to place the attention on an empty object, we have Zen or Dzogchen. whoa. I may have gotten carried away lol…I’m a bit passionate about the subject 🙂 Any how…once again, the link to the Dzogzen teaching is great. I’ll read some more soon. Thanks!

    #2807

    Samuel
    Member

    To provide an update on my experience of involuntary body movements:

    After abandoning TMI practice the involuntary body movements calmed down a lot. About 8 weeks ago, however, I decided that at this point in my spiritual development I am better off focusing on preparatory practices than on actual Dzogchen. After a few weeks of this the involuntary body movements in my feet and legs intensified considerably, though I have not experienced any movements in my arms and the intensity level is less than when I was practicing TMI.

    I decided to do spinal breathing for 5 minutes before meditating and found a significant decrease in movements during meditation, but no significant decrease in movements during daily life. I also decided to cut back to doing only 20 minutes of meditation a day slowly easing my way back into an hour of practice a day. This decision has significantly decreased the intensity of daily life body movements, but the intensity level is still high.

    • This reply was modified 5 years, 12 months ago by  Samuel.
    #2871

    Samuel
    Member

    Another update:

    the involuntary body movements started to intensify to the point where they would last from 30 minutes to a few hours. I tried removing all TMI elements from my practice and the duration and intensity of the body movements have dropped down again. It would appear that TMI raises my energy levels too quickly.
    As a side note, it appears that if I practice formless meditation I get an increase in body movements during the meditation session, but a decrease in body movements during daily life.

    • This reply was modified 5 years, 11 months ago by  Samuel.
    #3046

    Samuel
    Member

    Another update:

    after discussing some of the violent body movements I have had in my legs with a Lama, she told me they were a symptom that I was putting too much effort into my practice. After relaxing the effort in my practice the body movements have reduced substantially.
    As a side note: I’m going to try adding TMI elements back into my practice to see what happens.

    #3048

    Blake Barton
    Keymaster

    Hi Samuel,

    Thanks for the update. It is good to build up a knowledge base of information. I will be interested to see if less effort effects the movements during TMI practice.

    Best Wishes,
    Blake

    #3061

    Samuel
    Member

    Thus far, I have had an increase in movements during meditation, but not during daily life. That said, last time I returned to TMI it took a month before the daily life body movements got bad.

    #3067

    Samuel
    Member

    This week I had a significant decrease in body movements during daily life and meditation. I believe the reason I had a temporary increase in body movements was because switching to a different approach to meditation required a temporary increase in effort.

    #3068

    Darlene T
    Member

    Hello Samuel,

    Quite an exploration! I am becoming more and more interested in the kinds of involuntary movements you are speaking of and how they might be the same, or different, on or off the cushion. I’m glad you were able to speak to a Lama who was able to guide you regarding too much effort. Effort of any kind results in muscular tension in some or another muscle group. In a sense, meditation allows for greater relaxation of muscle tension, while the effort may contribute to more muscle tension. The body’s attempt to both release or let go, and tighten up and not let go could certainly result in increased involuntary movement.

    Violent movement in the legs can point to restless leg syndrome…and experience with some individuals has shown me that by doing alot of hip joint flexing, and strong extentions consciously, that the leg movements will settle down if you work with it regularly to release the build up of muscular/ energetic tension.

    That said, unless there is an underlying neurophysiological basis, movement is often part of a purification process which I interpret as a promising sign. Looking forward to hearing how it all goes.

    Darlene T (TMI Teacher in training)

    #3076

    Samuel
    Member

    Hello Darlene,

    I would 1st like to point out that because I meditate while lying down, I have yet to have any body movements on a cushion.

    During meditation, the body movements usually consist of my feet hitting each other as if my legs were trying to clap.

    Outside of meditation, usually my legs start moving back and forth as if I had to pee, causing my knees to hit each other. Sometimes the back-and-forth movement is weak enough that the knees don’t hit. It is also common for my feet to start tapping and occasionally my legs start stomping.

    To provide an update:

    these past few days the body movements started to intensify. I also started to become more reactive and my attention became less stable. I’m guessing this has little to do with my transition to TMI based practice and more to do with the purification process, but time should tell.

    • This reply was modified 5 years, 9 months ago by  Samuel.
    #3255

    Samuel
    Member

    No issues at the moment. The temporary intensification has subsided. At this point you should assume no issues unless I post back here.

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