Questions on involuntary body movements

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This topic contains 22 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by  Samuel 1 month ago.

Viewing 8 posts - 16 through 23 (of 23 total)
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  • #2477

    Blake Barton
    Keymaster

    Hi Samuel,

    I really am not very familiar with Dzogchen, but are you saying that the goal is not awakening to the true nature of reality?

    Blake

    #2525

    Darlene T
    Member

    Hello Samuel,
    I am most interested in your posts and the helpful responses of the teachers. Looking at the trajectory of your posts, it does seem important that there is some discernment between the wonderful experiences and results of involuntary movements however unusual…in contrast with specific or non specific health conditions that need attention. Overall, in piti experiences, it is quite simply your body’s own energetic opening and clearing internal and energetic pathways that lead to greater well being. Of course many are a bit fearful not knowing what might be happening to them. My practice is to say yes and not bear down on them to stop them…simply receive and experience. As far as your practice of Dzogchen not ending in dispassion…I am very curious should you decide to say more…In particular, what is your practice in the practice of Dzogchen?

    #2785

    Samuel
    Member

    Given my health, posting on here is rather inconvenient. The result is that it will take time for me to respond to your posts.

    In response to the question on dispassion.
    Because I’ve never had access to a Dzogchen teacher I am highly unqualified to speak of Dzogchen. I am even more unqualified to discuss the end results. That said, I will try to answer your question anyways.
    Basically, according to Dzogchen passion is not inherently problematic. When we integrate passion with the non-dual non-conceptual state we will experience it as raw energy arising out of emptiness and lacking intrinsic meaning. The result is that emotional energy can be harnessed strategically if you know what you’re doing. To give an example, public speakers who try to use nervousness strategically rather than get rid of it tend to be better speakers. To give another example, according to brain science sadness enhances one’s ability to pick up on details and think analytically.

    To convey the same idea in different words, in Dzogchen one learns how to not be intoxicated by passion rather than how to get rid of it. The experience of passion acquires the same flavor as not experiencing passion

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  Samuel.
    #2787

    Samuel
    Member

    In response to Blake’s post:
    no, that is not what I’m saying at all. Before explaining though, there’s something I need to clarify. Before a person is qualified to practice Dzogchen it is absolutely necessary that they have had a temporary experience of the non-duality of emptiness and form and the ability to reenter that non-dual state. The actual practice is about learning how to remain in the non-dual state. The result is that Dzogchen has a form of preliminary practice which induces a strong enough experience of non-duality for one to begin practicing Dzogchen (without inducing an insight experience).

    To add further clarification, when I was referring to the Dzogchen version of concentration meditation I was referring to the preliminary practice’s version of concentration meditation (and not the formless absorptions).

    #2792

    Samuel
    Member

    In response to Darlene asking about Dzogchen practice:

    Dzogchen has a reputation for being near impossible to learn without a teacher. For that reason, instead of trying to explain Dzogchen on my own and running the risk of spreading misconceptions I have decided to provide links to useful resources:

    http://arobuddhism.org/community/an-uncommon-perspective.html
    http://arobuddhism.org/community/dzogchen.html
    https://approachingaro.org/dzogchen-toc

    #2793

    Darlene T
    Member

    Hello Samuel,

    Thank you for the links…I’ve checked out the first one and find it quite good…very representative of Buddha Dharma in a very accessible form. Dzogchen, Mahamudra, and Zen, although they are of different lineages point to non dual awareness. In the case of Mahamudra it is the culmination of the trajectory of practices…whereas in Zen or sudden enlightenment schools…the first practice. I still remain somewhat confused about your statement about Dzogchen not ending in in dispassion…No doubt the suttas have been interpreted in a myriad of ways…but I don’t think dispassion has been the intent. Mindfulness yes, Dis-identification yes; Equanimity yes! In non dual awareness there is neither passion nor dispassion…simply the pure potentiality of either…and based on our situation and the wholesome or unwholesome response of the ego function we respond with passion or otherwise….and… if we respond as advised by the eightfold path, chances are we contribute to the down going of distress. The TMI walks us through the terrain of the minds formations with or without passion. In many respects, TMI is pointing to peripheral awareness and attention which brings us right into the present. If while we are peripherally aware, and we try to place the attention on an empty object, we have Zen or Dzogchen. whoa. I may have gotten carried away lol…I’m a bit passionate about the subject 🙂 Any how…once again, the link to the Dzogzen teaching is great. I’ll read some more soon. Thanks!

    #2807

    Samuel
    Member

    To provide an update on my experience of involuntary body movements:

    After abandoning TMI practice the involuntary body movements calmed down a lot. About 8 weeks ago, however, I decided that at this point in my spiritual development I am better off focusing on preparatory practices than on actual Dzogchen. After a few weeks of this the involuntary body movements in my feet and legs intensified considerably, though I have not experienced any movements in my arms and the intensity level is less than when I was practicing TMI.

    I decided to do spinal breathing for 5 minutes before meditating and found a significant decrease in movements during meditation, but no significant decrease in movements during daily life. I also decided to cut back to doing only 20 minutes of meditation a day slowly easing my way back into an hour of practice a day. This decision has significantly decreased the intensity of daily life body movements, but the intensity level is still high.

    • This reply was modified 1 month, 3 weeks ago by  Samuel.
    #2871

    Samuel
    Member

    Another update:

    the involuntary body movements started to intensify to the point where they would last from 30 minutes to a few hours. I tried removing all TMI elements from my practice and the duration and intensity of the body movements have dropped down again. It would appear that TMI raises my energy levels too quickly.
    As a side note, it appears that if I practice formless meditation I get an increase in body movements during the meditation session, but a decrease in body movements during daily life.

    • This reply was modified 1 month ago by  Samuel.
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