[SamuelMember]

Given my health, posting on here is rather inconvenient. The result is that it will take time for me to respond to your posts.

In response to the question on dispassion.
Because I’ve never had access to a Dzogchen teacher I am highly unqualified to speak of Dzogchen. I am even more unqualified to discuss the end results. That said, I will try to answer your question anyways.
Basically, according to Dzogchen passion is not inherently problematic. When we integrate passion with the non-dual non-conceptual state we will experience it as raw energy arising out of emptiness and lacking intrinsic meaning. The result is that emotional energy can be harnessed strategically if you know what you’re doing. To give an example, public speakers who try to use nervousness strategically rather than get rid of it tend to be better speakers. To give another example, according to brain science sadness enhances one’s ability to pick up on details and think analytically.

To convey the same idea in different words, in Dzogchen one learns how to not be intoxicated by passion rather than how to get rid of it. The experience of passion acquires the same flavor as not experiencing passion

• This reply was modified 7 years, 3 months ago by  Samuel.

[SamuelMember]

In terms of dealing with strong emotions, I have personally found it extremely helpful to try to get skilled at detecting a state of mind before it has collapsed my mindfulness. The way I learned how to do this is to study the impacts of the various emotions on my state of mind and body sensations. Each time I did this, I could detect the emotion and regain mindfulness faster the next time.

[SamuelMember]

Hello Meshe,
thanks for the clarification – I think we were in agreement on Dzogchen to begin with, but are merely used to different notations. What I meant by what I wrote earlier, was that trying to take methods out of Dzogchen or Tantra and combining them with TMI without knowing what you are doing, or understanding the systems you are borrowing from, is dangerous. I believe we agree here.

For a summary of what I mean by renunciation:
https://vividness.live/2013/11/22/renunciation-in-buddhism/
(for clarification, I am not referencing David Chapman as an authority, but merely as an effective communicator)
Because the TMI method doesn’t seem to use this kind of renunciation, but is highly effective for getting results, I am very interested in understanding what kind of renunciation is used and how it works.

[SamuelMember]

Dzogchen does not end in dispassion.

[SamuelMember]

I believe there is some linguistic confusion. By renunciate methods, I mean those which aim to destroy passion. Obviously, tantra isn’t about that! When I use the terms shamatha and vipassana, I am referring to Sutric practices. I would use the Tibetan equivalents to refer to Vajrayana practices.

I’m curious as to which styles of Dzogchen you are familiar with. It is my understanding that what you are saying is true about the mind series of Dzogchen, but not about the other series.

[SamuelMember]

To give examples of what I mean by using unpleasant emotions (to clarify):

1) According to psychologists people who are experiencing nervousness and reframe it as excitement do better at public speaking and math exams than those who are calm.

2) According to the “Upside of Your Dark Side” mild amounts of sadness allows us to do better at analytical tasks.

3) I look healthy, but am in poor health. If I don’t express unpleasant emotion enough, a non-trivial amount of people decide I am lying about my health and become aggressive to me.

As further clarification, emotions are not states of mind. The state of mind an emotion induces depends on how you view the emotion and what you are used to doing with it. There are styles of Buddhism that try to remove craving and aversion from the unpleasant emotions by transforming the states of mind they induce. Tantric Buddhism, Dzogchen, and Shingon are examples. They use emptiness and non-self as tools for manipulating our emotions so that we can harness them as tools for strategic benefit. These non-renunciant methods are traditionally considered incompatible with Samatha-Vipassana and are accompanied by very different spiritual paths. Trying to take them out of context may be dangerous. It is also important to note that most of these practices are advanced and require close work with a skilled teacher.

My question is whether or not unpleasant emotions without the aversion will disrupt progress in TMI.

[SamuelMember]

Hello Alex,

I have practiced traditional Buddhism for a few years (before switching to Dzogchen Longde) and don’t need a review of traditional renunciation. What I am looking for is what Dharma Treasure’s attitude is on the subject, to see if this kind of practice is a good fit for my friends.

What I mean by using unpleasant emotions is deliberately acting on an unpleasant emotion without losing control of one’s self or losing one’s introspective awareness. This is what Shinzen Young calls Zen transcendence. Far from losing control, it is a spiritual practice that changes our experience of unpleasant emotion completely.

Samuel

[SamuelMember]

Hello Blake,
to provide some extra information, I found that the Dzogchen approach to concentration meditation didn’t cause intense body movements. It is important to note, however, that the practice gets very different results than TMI and is aiming to prepare the practitioner for something very different from insight meditation.

Samuel

[SamuelMember]

Hello,
I thought I would provide an update. The involuntary body movements started to intensify and occur in daily life. Some of the involuntary body movements I had could’ve killed me if I was driving a car at the time. I decided to respond by abandoning my formal TMI practice for now and focusing on Dzogchen. Thus far, this is working well for me. My TMI practice has done a good job of preparing me for Dzogchen and I can practice full-body mindfulness during my physical therapy exercises without involuntary body movements. I have recently found myself becoming much more mindful in daily life than I used to be and am starting to have direct experience of the Dharmakaya. While I don’t expect to return to concentration meditation for a while, I would like to thank this community for the invaluable resources it has provided. Without them, I probably wouldn’t be ready for Dzogchen right now.

[SamuelMember]

As an update:

Thus far I have been unable to detect any special sensations before involuntary body movements. I did try the body scanning technique during the beginning of my meditation session last night and had a decrease in movements. I also found that after using the body scanning technique I was often able to detect involuntary body movements shortly after they were starting and stop them.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 5 months ago by  Samuel.

[SamuelMember]

Hello Blake,

Thanks for the advice.

I have noticed that involuntary body movements happen more frequently when practicing TMI. Also interesting to note: I took a break from TMI to explore different styles of Dzogchen practice and had an increase in movements after returning.

[SamuelMember]

Hello Blake,
I have been practicing for 4 years, started practicing TMI about a year ago, and am currently at stage 4. I’ve also started practicing Dzogchen longde about a month ago and am rather enjoying it.
I practice meditation lying down, after discovering that the connective tissue in my legs doesn’t like sitting meditation. I lie for an hour at a time doing 2 meditation sessions. During the 1st session, I practice Dzogchen, and during the 2nd session I practice TMI.
I have already had intense involuntary body movements in my toes, which occur almost every meditation session. Occasionally my legs move a little bit and every once in a while I involuntarily sit up. I’ve also found I sometimes involuntarily raise my hand, but this is mild enough and rare enough that I am hardly worried about it.
I am concerned however, by the idea that this is supposed to intensify in the later stages.

[SamuelMember]

The connective tissue in my arms and hands is injured. The result is that stretching motions drain a nontrivial amount out of my physical endurance and harsh stretches can injure me. I learned the hard way, to give you an example, that shaking people’s hands is bad for my health. Involuntary body movements in my arms could theoretically cause serious damage in the worst case, and unnecessarily drain out of my endurance in the best case.

[SamuelMember]

Hello again,

Sorry to post on this topic again, but I recently noticed that neither the consultations page nor the donations page mentions that it is possible to donate consultations. I simply wanted to point out that mentioning this possibility somewhere on the web site may be profitable.

Live long and profit
Sam

[SamuelMember]

Hello Neko,

Thank you for the clarification – much appreciated.

Have a great day
Sam

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