[Ivan GanzaMember]

Mahamudra, Dzogchen, Shikantaza and such are both very subtle and deep practices. They are certainly accessible once you could successfully engage with them.

I would personally make two suggestions before engaging in those:

1. Stabilize attention
2. Really clarify and study the view and instructions related to the one you want to pursue. There are excellent books available these days with some wonderful translations.

Any of those practices should be accessible probably around stage 7.

Engaging with those practices while not having stabilized attention may not be very fruitful.

Some teachers also suggest that one should have realized two-fold emptiness before engaging in these. Another way to say that might be that thoughts have lost their stickiness.

So all in all, probably best to work to at least around stage 7 before going on tangents. Once you have done that, it will probably be very clear to you, what is the best next step for your personal practice.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 9 months ago by  Ivan Ganza.

[Ivan GanzaMember]

I am a bit of a slow learner though when it comes to meditation, so probably not a good example. Roughly fifteen years with consistent daily practice and yearly retreat of about seven days (also practicing the four foundations of Mindfulness off the cushion as much as possible/capable). Only about 6-7 of those years under guidance of Culadasa.

Not one big accident but a series of small shifts gradually over time, little surrenders and givings in, ahas, slowly but surely, until the old mental model one day is realized to be utterly changed from the old Samsaric world model. Not necessarily knowing right when and where it happened.

Practice likely stage 7+ before the small shifts started to coalesce and really start to re-work the old model.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 10 months ago by  Ivan Ganza.

[Ivan GanzaMember]

Hi amitm02,

Let’s try to ‘down drill’ to the core, hopefully I can explain this in a coherent way.

Think of peripheral awareness kind-of like a flood light that is always on. You don’t need to do anything at all to turn on this flood light. It is always on but there is the possibly that it could be obscured in one of two ways: either by having too much focus/highly active attention, or becoming very dull, both of which have the result of preventing the information that is available from peripheral awareness being available to consciousness. This is why it is so important to cultivate a healthy balance of awareness and attention.

To be aware of peripheral awareness is like you can become aware of the receptive space that peripheral awareness provides for objects to occupy. Again, you don’t need to do anything for this to happen, only provide or reserve enough conscious processing power, such that some is available for peripheral awareness. An easier way to say that is to just maintain a good balance, not too tightly attentive, not dull. Just fresh and naturally balanced — keep your peripheral awareness nourished. With a good balance this all just occurs naturally! (A subtle point here is that if you ‘check in’ on your peripheral awareness, then you are actually using attention. So when I say you don’t need to do anything, that is not including the act of checking in, which of course, is doing something).

In your examples, you seemed to indicate that peripheral awareness was deciding what should become an object of attention. Peripheral awareness only presents information to consciousness — the information can then be acted upon by other processes. One of those processes would decide what object is interesting enough to become an object of attention, then attention would grab it, elaborate upon it, and make it the object of attention. Peripheral awareness does not do that. It only offers the object to consciousness. (The precise process how something becomes an object of attention, and if that is a separate process, or a sub-process of attention, is another matter that I am not totally sure about at the moment…)

The situation you described about falling off the breath sounds dead on in terms of what you described. You could only become aware that you came off the breath after the fact, even if just one mind-moment afterwards. The fact that you become aware of it how you described seems to me that you have a very good balance of attention and awareness in that instance — and that you are practicing very well. You maintained enough balance such that peripheral awareness could work with other processes in order to determine that your intention to stay on the breath was not being followed — then you become aware of that information and acted accordingly.

The key here is to maintain a good balance. Reserve enough conscious power so that peripheral awareness stays active, fresh, clean….; it will automatically do that if if just has enough conscious power.

I really hope this helps!!

-Ivan/

• This reply was modified 8 years, 10 months ago by  Ivan Ganza.
• This reply was modified 8 years, 10 months ago by  Ivan Ganza.

[Ivan GanzaMember]

Hi GC,

The most pithy and simple way I can think of to put this is as follows:

Think of peripheral awareness as a flood light that is always on, shining in all directions, but it can become obscured in various ways. Think of attention as a focused bean that can be pointed, it’s intensity can be changed, and it can obscure/overwhelm the flood light of awareness. Not a bad analogy as a very brightly light can obscure stuff in the background.

In terms of your question: The only thing you should be doing (apart from the actual practice) is to maintain a healthy balance between attention and awareness. Not totally focused and blocking out awareness (too much attention). Not totally dull and diffusing awareness/attention.

Reserving enough consciouses processing power such that peripheral awareness has some energy to operate with.

It will _automatically_ work —

In terms of attention — you apply attention as is appropriate for the practice you are currently doing — while at the same time maintaining that critical balance so that peripheral awareness remains nourished.

I’m sure others will add more helpful descriptions.

Sincerely hope this helps?

• This reply was modified 8 years, 10 months ago by  Ivan Ganza.
• This reply was modified 8 years, 10 months ago by  Ivan Ganza.

[Ivan GanzaMember]

Hi Bakery,

I think you kind-of answered the question 😉

Until sufficient re-working of the internal model has occurred (let’s call it Awakening) the analogy will hold true. In my experience, however, this does not mean you necessarily have to wait until stage ten for that to happen. You are already in a position to get hit by the wondrous accident all along the way, much more strongly in stage 7+.

Then there is a profound change and the bucket analogy no longer applies….; it is not as hard or far as it might seem.

Cheers,
-Ivan/

[Ivan GanzaMember]

I wanted to point out a subtle distinction related to the leaky bucket analogy. My fear is that we might start really solidifying this idea of the leaky bucket and basically spend forever trying to keep filling it up.

There does come a point when you throw out the bucket, the water, and the one who was filling it.

At first, yes, you’ll need to have balance and get a critical mass. But please throw the bucket out at some point!

-Ivan/

[Ivan GanzaMember]

Hi amitm02,

This is most excellent to investigate and clearly work out for yourself. By sitting and working at it, using the Tools as Michael said, it will certainly become clear to you over time!

I think you might be mixing up the act of committing something to memory with just being aware. The fact that you were aware of being in a particular room ten minutes ago does not mean you formed memory impressions of everything that was in your peripheral awareness at that time. Sure, you can kind-of think back, and your mind will try to fill out what you remember being aware of. It’s not the same as if you would have looked around and focused on each thing in the room and noted it’s qualities (in which case you would have used your faculty of attention). If you had done that your memory of the objects in the room would be different (likely more accurate and detailed)

Just being aware does not mean you will basically be storing everything that was in peripheral awareness into a database for later retrieval.

I hope that helps clear a little bit?

Cheers,
-Ivan/

• This reply was modified 8 years, 10 months ago by  Ivan Ganza.

[Ivan GanzaMember]

Peripheral awareness is just very natural!

For example, I am going to get up and walk downstairs. I need to be peripherally aware or I will bump into stuff and probably fall down the stairs and it won’t be good. My awareness will be out but I won’t be thinking about it, nor will I be focusing my attention tightly on anything. I will be aware of the stairs, walls floor and such, and I will move as required. I won’t be thinking “stairs”, “walls”, “floor” or anything though will I? They won’t be objects of my attention but I will be aware.

Or take for example driving, are you aware of what’s going on around you? Probably. But are you thinking about it with detailed attention? I doubt it. You are just navigating but having the awareness/sense of what’s around without tightly focusing attention on any one thing, except what might be happening that you must deal with.

Or take for example a martial artist facing multiple opponents. He keeps his awareness out and does not let it collapse/tighten up on the opponent directly infront of him, or he might get thumped from behind.

Peripheral awareness is just very natural!

Of course, due to our habit of being very mind based and totally in our heads, most people have a messed up balance of attention. For example, if I walk down the stairs on automatic pilot, just completely thinking about this or that, the extent to which I am peripherally aware is questionable.

It is just very natural, plain — simple. All we need to do is rediscover that natural balance.

I believe we all had this balance but over time we spun ourselves tighter and tighter, more and more in our heads, more thinking based, until we might eventually even forget what this felt like, and not even be aware that it exists.

I hope that helps clear up how Peripherally awareness feels????

• This reply was modified 8 years, 10 months ago by  Ivan Ganza.

[Ivan GanzaMember]

Hi John,

I believe what you are and the others are experiencing is the very common and almost totally universal human habit of being identified with our thoughts. Its feels very real and solid and like WE ARE THAT. We take the thoughts to be us, and by doing that, we infuse them with power — we become their servants.

Pretty much any true system of meditation will somehow accomplish breaking this identification (as one part of the process). It is just a matter of how you want to do it. There are many ways — but they mostly boil down to the same thing. So you will need to do it anyway regardless of what system you choose. One of the good aspects of doing it the TMI way is that it will be a relatively soft landing.

I would suggest to follow Blake’s advise and return your attention to the breath, again, and again, and again whenever a thought arises. You probably don’t want to keep moving your attention to the thoughts repeatedly each time, just keep returning to the breath again and again. After some unspecified and unknown amount of these returnings you will eventually create a bit of space between you and the thoughts. It may feel like it will never happen, or it may just be very strange to think how that is, but it will happen. Once you form that initial wedge, you can work with it, and progress will keep unfolding like that. Eventually the thoughts won’t trouble you much if at all.

One thing that I have found that might help, when you need a bit of a more powerful weapon, is labeling. If you find the thoughts are really disturbing you can always label them. So for example, just think to yourself “Thinking” each time the thought pops up, then return to the breath again. You can also take it a bit farther and label like “Anger”, “Desire”, “Hunger” — but just keep it very simple and don’t worry too much about what label you use. I used this like an emergency system when I was very overwhelmed and returning to the breath was not being effective. If you whack the thought enough times with a label it should run away. However — you only want to label as little as is required and then return to the standard breath practice as before.

The act of taking a more objective stance to the thoughts should help in forming that initial wedge….

One last thing: You may actually end up thinking you are doing badly because thoughts INCREASE and seem to become MORE powerful, and you may think, you are wasting your time, and to hell with it. If that should happen pat yourself on the back, it means you are practicing correctly.

Cheers,
-Ivan/

[Ivan GanzaMember]

Hi moln1,

There are a few points here coming up for me in this thread that I would like to address.

First off, congrats on sitting consistently every day!

I get the feeling you want to deepen and intensify your practice as much as you can. That is great and I hope you cultivate that intention. There can be some pitfalls here as well though.

Suggest that you proceed gingerly but firmly. Try not to push yourself too hard or you risk just burning out. You will need to find the best balance in terms of life, work, hours of sleep that you need, how easily you can wake up early, and such…; this is all part of the process.

Right now you are at critical phase, it can be good to reduce and eliminate as many unneeded activities as possible. I believe this will tend to happen naturally as your practice deepens and insights mature. The craving and need to do many of the usual activities just falls away. If you can identify any activities and such that might give you more time for formal sitting, that might be an avenue for you to open up more periods of sitting.

Watch out though!! You need to be watchful of creating a rift between “your practice” and the rest of your life and your family. Be watchful of creating a big separation!

In terms of activities and time practiced: Prefer Quality or Quantity. If you have 1H of fully awake formal sitting each day, that is better than 4H where you are hardly awake and just basically nodding off. You need to be the judge.

Having said that, you might notice I am using the term “formal sitting”. When we first set out we plant the seeds of our practice, and need to take great care and nurture those seeds. So we sit formally and do the work.

When possible try to mingle formal sitting with all the other activities of life. Study the four foundations of mindfulness. Practice Mindfulness off the cushion. Don’t just get up and leave your meditation behind. If you practice during all hours of the day, as much as you are capable, that will super charge your formal sitting time.

Perhaps you are only able to free up the 1H for formal sitting. Yet — if you can practice during all other hours of the day — then you will basically be practicing all the time — and the fruits of that will come.

It may seem hard or nearly impossible, but if you are gentle with yourself, and keep at it, you can “practice” almost all of the time.

Finally: at the beginning we need to seclude ourselves a little, make that space, the essence of taking refuge and renunciation. We do the work. Eventually merging back with daily life but having a different relationship. At this point it won’t matter that much what’s going on, you can watch the violent movie, make love to with your wife, disciple your children, sit or not sit, all will taste the same.

Even the notion of “practice” is empty and needs to be eventually abandoned.

Cheers,
-Ivan/

[Ivan GanzaMember]

Hi Blaz,

I would not presume to reply for Matthew, so if I am off the mark, I hope I will be corrected.

Once one is at stage 7, there should be an element of a self guidance surfacing. Kind-of like there has been a good steady acceleration and now sufficient velocity has been achieved.

I don’t think you need to do each and every practice necessarily. The practices are just keys opening the same door. One key may be sufficient. Maybe not — it all depends on your situation and where your heart is leading you to. What feels and is most beneficial to you. You can certainly try all the practices, gain some ability in them, but it is not strictly required.

Keep your eyes open and see what works for you!

Cheers,
-Ivan/

[Ivan GanzaMember]

Hi Bakery,

Most people would have a solid habit of sitting formally every day, and practicing informally during the rest of the hours of day. Retreat is very beneficial if possible.

The amount of hours one sits are not as important as having a solid and consistent daily practice. You need to find what works for you. I hope you have started to sit everyday with consistency? 😉 (If not make that #1 priority asap!)

Finding out too many details about other people’s practice and experience is not always helpful. Meditation practice is very personal and even though there are maps and similarities, it is still somewhat of a unique experience for each person. It may not always be helpful to find out too many details of someone else’s practice. There is a danger of grasping onto those details, perhaps measuring ourselves against them, or even trying to replicate them, judging ourselves, etc…; it may not have the desired result. Better to just concentrate on your practice.

For some great inspiration I suggest to study the Pali Suttas or read up on the lives of some famous and well known practitioners. Personally I find that highly inspiriting.

The most important thing is to grab the map Culadasa has given us, and start sitting!

—
Let me leave you with a quote that I felt like sharing with you:

We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time. T. S. Eliot

Cheers,
-Ivan/

[Ivan GanzaMember]

The book is basically a map. Check the map once in a while but don’t try to hold it in your hands while you are doing the driving 😉

The only flawed meditation is one you didn’t do. If you are sitting that is amazing!

Cheers,
-Ivan/

[Ivan GanzaMember]

Hi Praxis,

My intention was not to communicate that one should have no goals.

It is alright to have goals and work towards them. The goals should be approached in a playful way though — with as little attachment to them as possible. It is a subtle, distinction but important.

Use the map to check where you are, check what you need to work on, set your goals/intentions, then put that down for a while — let it play out —

Have the goals, but try not to be too attached to when and how they play themselves out….

Cheers,
-Ivan/

• This reply was modified 9 years ago by  Ivan Ganza.
• This reply was modified 9 years ago by  Ivan Ganza.

[Ivan GanzaMember]

Experiencing the emotion in a more detached fashion, as an objective observer, without labeling it, is a step in the right direction. However, there could still be clinging to whatever arises, even if it is not labeled.

Developing the ability to experience events objectively is highly beneficial though.

Ultimately — the experience of the emotion (or anything else) would be experienced in total equanimity.

Meaning no clinging whatsoever.

No stickiness.

Like a drawing on whatever that leaves no trace.

Ultimately not even a standpoint remains.

• This reply was modified 9 years ago by  Ivan Ganza.

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