Physical vs mental (jealousy) suffering

[Griffin HMember]

Hi all!

I’m struggling a bit with jealousy in my relationship and was looking for some advice around handling it. I’m practicing tmi and it feels like I’m towards the end of stage three.

The occasional strong ‘jealousy attacks’ are something I’ve discussed with my partner and can clearly see it’s in my imagination and something I feel safe talking about. However as I’ve had a pretty emotional experience in the past around this feeling it still can arise with a lot of strength to the point of occasionally leaving me shaking in a more raw way that seems to escape being logical about.

That said I’ve also played with physical suffering and found it true for me that in meditating outside in the cold or with hunger I can let the resistance go and there is no more suffering, at least for a short while. This is great and very validating!

However with strong feelings of jealousy (and probably other strong fears that may come up) I’m having a really hard time picking apart the resistance.

There is definitely stories there and I’ve been practicing noting ‘fear is telling this story, thank you for the story’ to develop mindfulness of it but it hasn’t really changed anything for me. (Though it’s only been a couple weeks). In doing this I have noticed how frequently my actions are actually rooted in small fears, which is somewhat more frustrating as I don’t want to act out of jealousy but it’s hard when I’m off the cushion to have it come over and over.

Is this the right approach? Have others experienced dealing with a very active fear imagination? Is there a difference in how it feels to be free of physical vs mental suffering?

Thank you!

• This topic was modified 7 years, 2 months ago by  Griffin H.

[Griffin HMember]

Small follow up to this:

With something like cold, I feel like when I’m sitting each time I come back to the breath it’s like I’m leaving this virtual river of thoughts and just experiencing the feeling. Upon reflection I realize that in that river I’m suffering but in attention to breath I don’t think I am.

With the strong feelings of jealousy I’m not really sure what I’m leaving the river into? Is there a base experience of fear that is in the moment or is it all layered in imagination and eventually mental pain doesn’t actually exist in the present?

Thanks again!

[Meshe MooetteMember]

Hi Griffin!

Every time the strong compulsion of jealousy arises and you are able to be with it without acting on it- that compulsion grows weaker. It will be strong and uncomfortable for as long as it takes but it will diminish as you refuse to buy into it as you have been doing so courageously.

One thing that has been helpful to me with this emotion is to deeply contemplate the following: don’t I want that person to be happy? (Even if it means I don’t get what I want like their attention/affection?). If you can come to the place where you recognize that your love for them would be undiminished regardless of circumstances- jealousy has no place in such a mind. It seems to me that love is the absence of self-clinging (a spectrum is possible)- and that this contemplation can reduce self-clinging which automatically reduces afflictive emotions.

Along with recognizing the the arising abiding and passing away of thoughts-story (which occur in the present moment- but may have content projecting a past or future) do you differentiate the arising abiding and passing away of strong physical sensations during a “jealousy occurrence” as well?

Mental suffering comes from identifying with the projected self of the story or identifying the strong physical sensations as “mine”.

All the best, Meshe

[Blake BartonKeymaster]

Hi Griffin,

I find Shinzen Young’s “Focus In” method very helpful for dealing with difficult emotions. Through careful noting, you notice mental talk and images, and also the sensations in the body associated with an emotion. You will also learn to see how they fuel each other. He calls it the divide and conquer method. If you do this practice regularly then hopefully you can use it when a strong emotion comes up in daily life.

For more information go to:
http://shinzenorg.wpengine.com/resources/#articles

Click on the Five Ways to Know Yourself article which will load or download a PDF file. Then look at Chapter 1: The Way of Thoughts and Emotions.

Blake – DT Teacher

[PeterMember]

What a coincidence. I just found that pdf earlier this week and finished reading it today.

[KimWMember]

Hi Griffin and Peter,

This topic of mental suffering is a big one for sure, and I have used various approaches to help release the attachments. Noticing the aversion that arises around the habitual thoughts/emotions, and feeling into the physical sensations of that, as well as the physical sensations that are present with the original emotion can be helpful.

Keep peripheral awareness strong while exploring the habitual thoughts/sensations, which sometimes can be easier when practicing outdoors. Notice if the mental habit is to collapse attention into the mental/physical sensations, which engenders a strong sense of separate self with its inherent suffering. It can hard to do this when involved in interpersonal relationships. However, small changes can be encouraged by making note of every success or time when these habitual energies are not as strong.

Psychotherapy, or EFT tapping or anything else that works can be helpful to loosen these habitual patterns. It does not all have to be done with meditation, and habitual patterns are sometimes better addressed by other means.

” I’m not really sure what I’m leaving the river into? Is there a base experience of fear that is in the moment or is it all layered in imagination and eventually mental pain doesn’t actually exist in the present?” As practice deepens, there can be the realization of the suffering inherent in having a physical body, however, it is our perceptions of what is happening which lead to fear, and if the mind is free of clinging, there is no mental pain in the present moment.

[GAudeamusMember]

Hi Griffin,

The core challenge in resolving a strong negative emotion like jealousy in my experience is that one is not able to just drop the resistance to the feeling itself and to just experience and embrace it, as is always advised. The reason is the strong sense of aversion to that feeling (in this case, jealousy). We recoil from experiencing that inferior, not good enough, less than, unworthy self (or whatever is the core identity in the individual case). In order to implement the solution (which is accepting, embracing, loving and thus integrating your jealous self), you have to first eliminate the strong judgement of bad and negative about the underlying identity.

You can accomplish that by identifying and experiencing the strong feelings of bad, horrible, despicable which you have attached to the jealousy. Just allow yourself to feel these feelings, immerse yourself into the “badness” of the jealousy. If you really apply yourself to the exercise you will notice after a couple of minutes that the strong aversion, disgust and recoiling associated with the jealousy disappear.

You then will be able to dive into the root cause of the jealousy, find the fearful, insecure, unworthy, inferior or whatever identity it is which triggers the jealousy, and welcome it, embrace it, love and heal it. This may take several sessions until you are not triggered anymore.

I have completely overcome strong jealousy using this technique.

[Griffin HMember]

Thank you all for the helpful replies!

Meshe I appreciate the reassurance that it is okay to stay with the strong feelings and not act on them. I have not been paying much attention to the passing of the feelings or thoughts only to their arising. I have also mostly been noticing the stories that arise, I wil try and extend my awareness to the physicality as well.

I can definitely see holding the question of my partners happiness loosens my heart a bit. It feels like I’m facing the fear of my imagination and in that brief moment of release I’m learning there is nothing to fear? But also that in those strong moments I think I’ll need to be patient and just keep practicing. Logically I want happiness for my partner and I those strong moments it’s probably hiding deep down. It feels like a tight hand squeezing and my view of everything shrinks a bit. Like the opposite of rose colored glasses 🙂

Blake thank you for that resource! I will read that! It sounds like noticing the physical side of emotions is something to experiment with!

Kim thank you! At the moment I have a lot of anticipation which I think might be aversion to jealousy and when it does arise I’m probably getting very absorbed in ‘fixing it’ and thinking of all the ways I can be free of the ‘pain’, like posting to this forum ^__^. At the moment a lot of things still cause my awareness to dissapear, and I can see how with jealousy that definitely leads to more absorbtion in the story!

Gaudmeas, thank you as well! I have noticed very strong feelings of insecurity and self judgment and all the stories associated with that but have not been as good at noting their arising without getting sucked in. I get the sense it’s probably a very strong story at the root of this. I will start practicing spending a little time after my meditations to bring this feeling up and explore the judgement and feelings.

Peter, I’m still very new to meditation and approaching the world from that viewpoint, but I was thinking that in conversation with another person, perhaps that person and their words can be your meditation object? So if insecurity arises, or self conciousness maybe bringing yourself back to the sound of their words or the color of their eyes and letting the internal dialogue continue on it’s own. That said since I’ve been trying to speak carefully when I’m jealous it gets very analytical and questioning of each thing I’m saying and I do feel slightly disengaged from the normal in the moment flow of conversation. That probably will go away with practice just like overanalyzing the labeling of a distraction in meditation goes away. Anyway with a grain of salt that’s what I would try!

Thank you everyone for the advice and especially the inspiration to take my time with this! As with everything I’m learning that there is not really a quick fix or way around difficult habits and feelings. It helps to think of it as an adventure and to know there are others out there who have passed through the same kinds of issues and found peace with them.

Cheers!
Griffin

[Meshe MooetteMember]

The best time to sit and investigate is in the heat of the moment, if at all possible. Looking at the thoughts, mental images and sensations- ask, “what does this say about me?” This can help to get to core beliefs around a sense of self “I’m unloveable” “I’m a victim” etc. Then by gently observing the thoughts, images and sensations- inquire if any one of them in and by itself is that- the me that is unloveable:a victim etc.

This is a rough synopsis of a meditation called the Unfindable Inquiry- developed by Scott Kiloby (Living Inquiries).

What I have found is that triggering will continue until core beliefs are ungrasped/seen through and that it’s very useful to have a series of dedicated sessions just to work with unravelling and exploring these triggers. Of course, being gentle patient and kind to ourself in this process.

[Darlene TMember]

Thank you for the question and for the responses. I believe a few different perspectives on the same question can have great value. All I would add is for you to explore other literature, specifically the Attachment work by Ainsworth and or Crittendon. This can help you identify how the particular emotional pattern may have been constructed in the first place, and then, how it might be being triggered and exacerbated in the present time.

Then, use the methods the teachers are giving you to help you identify and differentiate your feeling states…Finally, move and stretch your body and breathe to help release the physiological and energetic component.

Best wishes,
Darlene (teacher in training)

[Griffin HMember]

Meshe I haven’t read beyond your post yet so the ‘living inquiries’ might elaborate, but can you clarify just a bit more?

Is the idea in practice this:
jealousy says stories like ‘I’m not good enough, I’m not smart enough, funny enough, they are way more cappable than me’ and so on. Then you just keep that thought in attention and ‘feel’ if it’s true? It seems like for thoughts like that right now they are wavering and coming and going and can’t really stay and be questioned. Is the idea to learn they they to are just arising and passing?

Thank you!

[PeterMember]

Hi Darlene, which books do you recommend?

This one “Patterns of Attachment: A Psychological Study of the Strange Situation”? And which one by Crittendon?

[Meshe MooetteMember]

Hi Griffin!

It is an emptiness meditation on the constructed nature of self- we see how “the person who is suffering jealousy” arises (and with powerful mindfulness, see how it passes away too). It is called unfindable, as we will never be able to find that self as a discreet, point-out-a-ble entity.

There is a list of trained facilitators (some of whom I’ve experienced as wonderfully kind, spacious facilitators of the inquiry) here:
https://www.livinginquiries.com/facilitators/.

Meditation will develop powerful mindfulness, and these mental patterns will become increasingly transparent as mere thoughts/sensations, the sense of being tormented by the passing thoughts and feelings will diminish and diminish.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.059.mend.html

So keep meditating =)

[Griffin HMember]

I picked up the book and will look deeper into it!

And yes I will definitely keep meditating haha! Thanks again Meshe!!!

[SamuelMember]

In terms of dealing with strong emotions, I have personally found it extremely helpful to try to get skilled at detecting a state of mind before it has collapsed my mindfulness. The way I learned how to do this is to study the impacts of the various emotions on my state of mind and body sensations. Each time I did this, I could detect the emotion and regain mindfulness faster the next time.

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