[Meshe MooetteMember]

Scary sounds like incomplete integration of insight experience =) (aka dark night). I’ve been through my share of that. The experience of wonder started to arise when insight into selflessness deepened-

TMI’s Appendix F has been a huge support in putting “scary insight experience” into perspective.

yours,

meshe

[Meshe MooetteMember]

Good morning!

It sounds to me like you are approaching this in a beautiful way- taking into account your overall situation and following intuitive guidance towards relaxation and clarity.

I don’t see how that isn’t continuing along the map laid out in TMI. Remembering not to identify with impatience- sub-minds with conflicting intentions arising in the boardroom of consciousness, that come and go on their own (pg. 92, and 5th interlude). I’m reminded of a poem by Hafiz-

“Sometimes a mule does not know what is best for itself. When the mind is confused like that it secretly desires a master with a skilled whip. To guide it to those playgrounds on the earth’s table where the sweet one’s light has made life more tasty. Hafiz always carries such a whip, but I rarely need to use it. I prefer just turning myself into the pretties mule in town, and making my tail sing, knowing your heart will then follow.”

Some suggestions: simple, long hold restorative yoga asana combined with the “5 elements meditation” presented in stage 5 (pg 175).

Spending time gently contemplating the mind-model presented in the 5th interlude.

Continuing to follow your intuition and engaging in loving-kindness meditation.

yours,

meshe

[Meshe MooetteMember]

Good morning!

We discussed this In our class yesterday, here’s a summary:

In the meditation on dependant arising both awareness and attention are working together- high state of mindfulness- observing rather than analyzing.

To the degree that the meditator may need or want to analyze this, they would wait and do it afterwards.

They are watching the process. what their attention is doing, is following the process. what awareness is doing is guiding attention in the process. The relationship of things to each other is a kind of information that awareness is very good at detecting, whereas attention makes inappropriate and overly simple connections between diverse objects.

The is the kind of investigating that a naturalist does- paying attention to behaviour by just taking in the information through observation. Then the relationships, the links between all these pieces of information begin to emerge. Once they begin to emerge, then it’s possible to analyze and describe it.

[Meshe MooetteMember]

I have also experienced a lot of physical tensions during sits, and so have experimented a lot with my position. I have found that supine (lying down) is best for me. Or meditating after some yoga asana.

Once there is stability of attention, the sensations of tension can also serve as an object of inquiry- looking to see if they are permanent or not, inherently suffering, constitute a self or not.

Well, maybe a better way of saying “playful” would be- interested, or engaged. Like, “what the heck is this breath thing anyways?” So that sitting isn’t boring (snore), or overly goal-oriented (gotta bear down hard and get to the next stage!). Touching in with your motivation, again, when things get rocky.

Training in relaxed, engaged, conscious attention to a neutral object is most assuredly going to illuminate both craving and aversion. Reminds me of a song by Morcheeba, “it’s all part of the process”…

My all-time favorite practice to lubricate the whole process is the “inner-smile”- =)- never fails to illuminate pleasurable sensations!

Wishing you all the best, m

[Meshe MooetteMember]

Although it can be both relieving and frustrating to hear, if you are practicing diligently and regularly, having periods such as the one you are describing is often a sign of progress. (For example, Je Tsongkapa’s description of the early stages of shamatha in the Lam Rim Chen Mo). The stages are not rigidly linear- but looping and cumulatively progressive. Relaxing is essential. Walking, cooking, physical activity, warm baths, singing- these come to mind. So rather than taking a “trying to release tension” stance- perhaps throw it all away and search your heart for a truly relaxing enjoyable way to refresh and renew. Bring a spaciousness to the process- enough room for everything; skill development (which you so nicely described as having all those balls in the air), the increased awareness of mental and physical tensions AND truly relaxing so you can bring a light, curious and playful attitude to the inward path.

All the best, Meshe

[Meshe MooetteMember]

Also- if you are able to consistently experience stable attention with continuous introspective awareness using the method you described- perhaps it’s time to re-evaluate your goals and try some stage 4-5 practices?

[Meshe MooetteMember]

Appreciating the “aha” moment when there is a spontaneous return to clarity (returning from either dullness or agitation) works very well to affirm intentions to maintain peripheral awareness while attending to breath sensations. This skill (something that we must repeat again and again in each sit) is practiced in stage 2
-3, and results in the continuous introspective awareness experienced by the end of stage 4.

So without getting agitated during a sit with wondering about the “right balance” between attention and peripheral awareness, try simply reinforcing spontaneous introspective awareness by appreciating the moments-of-return when the balance is present.

Hope this helps and addresses your specific concern, Meshe

[Meshe MooetteMember]

Good morning!

We are lucky in that the implications of this meditation are clearly spelled out in various ways depending on the teaching lineage. While it accomplishes the goal of enhancing metacognitive awareness of mental processes, it deep value is that it can lead to insight experience.

Keep in mind that this meditation involves seeing the how “things” arise, and the suffering that is engendered through a personal self relating to objects as having a separate independent nature. So, great benefit and insight can come from a “chunkier” level of this meditation (not trying to get so deeply into every single sensation and seeing the links arise for each). Or simply choosing to start with obvious “triggers” of craving or aversion.

For example: image of “my lover” with another woman arises. (contact)
feeling response arises (-)
aversion arises
impulse to say something (becoming)
speech (birth)

Plus, it may be helpful to not look at it quite so linearly. But like a ball of con-fused things. The sensation may be fused with the affective feeling, but while resting with the sensation, there is a dawning awareness that in the feeling is just the feeling.

Looking forward to hearing from others on this topic!
_______________________________

From Culadasa’s writing on the subject:
Slide 10:
The Subtle Implications of Dependent Arising:
1. Nothing stands outside of cause and effect.
Therefore, anything that appears to be “supernatural” or “magic” only appears that way because
we don’t fully understand the causes. The laws of causality are never violated.
2. All that arises due to causes and conditions must also pass away.
Everything, therefore, is impermanent.
3. Anything that arises does so in dependence upon multiple causes and conditions.
Each individual thing or event is the nexus of a massive causal convergence.
4. Causes and effects always arise together.
The arising and passing away of separate “things” is an illusion. There is just a single, continuous
process.
5. Everything, everywhere is causally interconnected.
Absolutely everything and everyone is an interpenetrating, inseparable part of a single, indivisible,
causally interdependent whole, best conceived of as a process.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by  Meshe Mooette.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by  Meshe Mooette.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 7 months ago by  Meshe Mooette.

[Meshe MooetteMember]

Hi John!

I just saw this old post that may help: http://dharmatreasurecommunity.org/forums/topic/questions-and-clarifications-about-peripheral-awareness

[Meshe MooetteMember]

All that being said, I’m all in favour of testing out practices that are recommended for other stages- and have heard the advice, “80% the main practices for your stage, and the 20% go wild trying out practices recommended for higher stages”.

Then on page 429-430 is a passage describing the 3 approaches described by the Buddha towards meditation:

Samatha followed by vipassana, vipassana followed by samatha and samantha and vipassana yoked together. There are short explanations of the practitioner’s abilities that are best suited each approach, and how that approach happens in practice.

=)

• This reply was modified 7 years, 9 months ago by  Meshe Mooette.

[Meshe MooetteMember]

thanks for catching that starflower! I meant adept (so stage 7- the transition to becoming an adept meditator, and 8+). In TMI, the meditation on dependant origination (a vipassana practice) is found in stage 8 practices.

On page 429 in the notes, is a passage that answers this, “true Insight practice requires that your powers of both concentration and mindfulness be equivalent to those described for the beginning of Stage 7.”

[Meshe MooetteMember]

Hi David! I was inspired to join the conversation =).

Many times I have heard Culadasa refer to TMI as a shamatha-vipassana method, not truly two separate beasts.

While at a Goenka-ji retreat (of which I sat 6 prior to ever hearing the word shamatha), you do make a commitment to not “practise other techniques” – to follow the instructions. I would interpret this to mean sticking with the object provided during the course (the first 3 days it’s the sensations of the breath at the nostrils-for those who have never been) and then the sensations throughout the body for the next 7 days. A vivid awareness of the 3 marks of existence rounds out the practice, followed by loving kindness. (I realize you are talking about group sits, not the whole course- but wanted to provide a framework for those who have no experience with Goenka-ji.)

I don’t see them as separate techniques- one to be chosen over the other. TMI provides a structure to understanding and working with what happens in the course of a sit. Is attention on the object? You will know with introspective awareness… Is there subtle dullness? Subtle agitation? Forgetting? Am I experiencing the purifications described in stage 4 practice? TMI also provides tools for working with these obstacles at each stage.

Having a vivid, continuous awareness of the 3 marks of existence while engaging in continuous body scanning is possible as an advanced meditator. On the way there, we experience all the things described in TMI so beautifully. So although TMI offers many techniques for understanding and working with the mind, it itself is not a technique, but a set of tools and a framework which can be applied within meditation practise.

I remember sitting one particular Goenka-ji retreat where I just gave up. I think it was my 3rd one. I spent the entire retreat engaged in mental craving and fantasy. When I got out of retreat, I thought all my fantasizing was real, and caused myself great suffering within the context of relationships.

I wasn’t practicing properly and didn’t have an understanding of the whole path, progression and development of a meditative career, if you will. I believe now that if I had internalized the wisdom contained in TMI before that retreat- that would not have been able to occur.

Yours,

Meshe
-Teacher in Training

• This reply was modified 7 years, 9 months ago by  Meshe Mooette.

[Meshe MooetteMember]

Good morning!

It’s important to differentiate between the goal of stage 6- exclusive attention, and the goal of stage 4. At stage 4, there will still be stray thoughts, that pass through like clouds, but don’t lead to FORGETTING or MIND WANDERING.

Remember, there are still subtle distractions (i.e. flickers of things other than the meditation object) until the end of stage 6.

To assess- seeing (like you did) if there is still FORGETTING or MIND-WANDERING is a good gauge which stage practices/intentions will be best at the moment.

That being said, walking meditation is also fantastic to sink into the pleasant moment, helping to break up any striving thought patterns and relax the mind.

Mastery of stage 3: Rarely forgetting the breath or falling asleep (notice “rarely”- so it still may happen) . Maybe it’s time to try other stage practices and see if they are fun/useful?

I personally would try “a little” of any stage practice that awakens an enthusiastic feeling about sitting,

Hope this helps,

Meshe, TTinT

• This reply was modified 8 years ago by  Meshe Mooette.

Attachments:

You must be logged in to view attached files.

[Meshe MooetteMember]

Hi Jason! Where are you located? If you don’t mind a bit of travel:

There is a 1 month retreat going on this July on the top of Mount Tuam, Saltspring Island, Canada. Douglas Veenhof is leading it- he is how I became involved in Culadasa’s teacher-training as he referenced “The Mind Illuminated” many times. Cost for room and board will be $2100 CAD, we collectively make monetary offerings on top of that to Doug for guiding.

The retreat centre was founded by Kalu Rinpoche (http://kkc-kdol.org/index.php/kdol) and has hosted several 3 year retreats over the years. It’s pretty much off grid, using solar power and well-water. It overlooks the ocean and bluffs of arbutus trees. You can also book directly with them for private retreats at very low costs. I believe they still have a $10 a night tenting option. ($12 with food).

You can find out more about Doug’s retreat by emailing me (lakshmeshe@gmail.com) if it strikes your fancy! I have attached an image of a meditation hut on Saltspring, and also my favorite picture of the view from up there.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 3 months ago by  Meshe Mooette.

Attachments:

You must be logged in to view attached files.

[Meshe MooetteMember]

Hi again Sergey!

There’s a goldmine there- to bust through any delusion about reality and continue the insight that occurred. Who doesn’t love who? How does that person exist? (Passing cloud?) what are the sensations associated with that thought? Where are they physically? Do they stick around? What happens when they go? If it doesn’t feel too crazy, vipassana the heck out of those things! (At the same time as truly treating yourself in a healthful and balanced/relaxed way).

What i’ve noticed is that after the insight i had, all sorts of terror/control fantasies have been running through. Seeing the selfless-ness of anything is truly the enemy of delusion. No wonder Tibetan Buddhism has those terrifying looking deities.

All the best as these seeds sprout and pass away,

Meshe

[Author]

Posts