[Ivan GanzaMember]

Hi Samuel,

Can you elaborate on the context of your question — Are you thinking this is applicable to the domain of meditation practice? Or more for example related to personal improvement and betterment?

Thanks,
-Ivan/

(DT Teacher in Training)

[Ivan GanzaMember]

In answer to your question:

In 4th Jhana: the way attention is functioning would be more comparable to the first paragraph. In a deep 4th Jhana, there would be no moments of attention being generated, and we perhaps could think of this as being way down deep, we are in a still place, far from all the activity at the surface.

In terms of the stage 9 practice: I need to point out, that we have not yet discussed those practices in the course yet. (I have edited my above post to reflect that). I may very well be doing something a bit different than what Culadasa means by that practice). I am not doing the meditation on the mind as a fixed-concentration based practice. I use open-eyed panoramic awareness, with an initial push of my attention into my awareness so to speak, then leaving it in place after that (with an occasional refresh of that if required).

Anyhow the only way I can think to describe what I think your wondering about, is as follows:

– Imagine that you have two cups, one is the cup of attention, the other is the cup of peripheral awareness (we will just call it awareness here)
– In the Jhanas, where the Jhana is deep enough, it is like you set aside the cup of attention out-of-sight; i.e. no moments of attention are generated
– With meditation-on-the-mind; where a fuse together of attention/awareness can occur; it is more like you (temporarily) pour the cup of attention into the cup of awareness
– Now where previously, you would have had a moment of attention-only for instance, you instead have a moment of (fused) attention-awarness (they are kind-of fused together) (*This is the best way I can think to describe it, I am not totally sure if it is valid to describe this way)
– This is how it is coming up for me to describe it, I hope my description is accurate, and not misleading anyone, it is difficult to write about cohereantly. I write based from my own experience…;

Cheers,
-Ivan/

(DT Teacher in Training)

(Edited)

• This reply was modified 7 years, 10 months ago by  Ivan Ganza.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 10 months ago by  Ivan Ganza.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 10 months ago by  Ivan Ganza.

[Ivan GanzaMember]

Are you wondering about these distinctions mostly from a theoretical basis?

Experience, over, over, over and over again is the best teacher. Then what others have wrote becomes more clear, and you can start to see why one person writes this way, and another that way.

Anything we try to describe and pin down with a nice tidy concept eventually falls apart. The descriptions of Jhana are pretty good, yet we have varying descriptions, translations, etc — the concepts and descriptions work to a point — past that you just need to eat the ice cream.

The Jhana meditations are much more fixed concentration where thoughts have been temporary suppressed. It is like diving deep into a lake. First you start on the surface, where there is much activity, and slowly dive down, deeper and deeper…..

Meditation on the mind/fusing of attention/awareness if more like you take off up out of the lake, the lake disappears, and your vantage point becomes a 360 sphere, where anything is permitted to move and dance in that space.

(*NOTE: We have not discussed stage 9 in the course yet. I may very well be doing the practice in a different way than Culadasa intended)

These are quite difficult to describe with words….

Best just keep eating from the menu 😉

• This reply was modified 7 years, 10 months ago by  Ivan Ganza.

[Ivan GanzaMember]

I really like the analogy of the mountain peaks.

The example I usually think of is that of trying to drive to a destination using an old-style map. (From the days when we actually still used maps rather than google maps…)

Anyhow, TMI is a very good map. But it is not the terrain. You can see roughly where you need to go, and have some pretty good instructions. You know what land marks to look for and so forth.

However — until you actually see the land-marks and learn your way by going that route over-and-over, many many times, becoming familiar with all the stops, you won’t know the details of the route.

And it seems each of us travel our own version of the route, and the land-marks and such look a bit different (and it doesn’t help that the land-marks are a bit shifty and not always perfectly clear! With time, doing the route over and over, they do become more and more clear all the time though)

Keep at it!

Cheers,
-Ivan/

(DT Teacher in Training)

[Ivan GanzaMember]

Sitting will not always be comfortable, especially at beginning stages. Those feelings of discomfort are most likely related to a majority of sub-minds not being onboard with your intention to sit and meditate.

How can you deal with it?

If you energize the discomfort by thinking of it as a hurdle and resisting it, the effect is to energize the discomfort more, and give validity to the idea those sub-minds have of resisting the intention to meditate.

Instead, do not energize those feelings of discomfort/boredom/dissatisfaction– let them come, let them be, let them go.

Give them space.

This is actually an extremely valuable opportunity for insight! You have something to work with. Can you just allow the discomfort/boredom/dissatisfaction to be, as they are, do what they will, without getting involved?

Overtime, if you do not energize them, and practice what is outlined in the book as appropriate for your stage, they should eventually be highly reduced, and finally dissipate all together.

Just do it. Just do the practice as outlined. Do your best to NOT get involved with what comes up.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 11 months ago by  Ivan Ganza.

[Ivan GanzaMember]

Thanks for the details.

So a couple of points.

First off, I think Michael was right on the money, and I hope he will chime in again.

It sounds like your expectations may be preventing your meditation practice from deepening. It is as if you plant your garden, water it, then the next day start digging up the soil to check if the plants have started growing. In the context of meditation practice, expectations can hold us back.

Can you find a way to engage with your practice with no expectation of result? It is not the usual way we think in western society, but it is necessary. Focus on the method, not the result.

You often talk about generating positive feelings/joy/etc. As you probably are already aware from the book — YOU simply cannot do that. All you can do is setup the conditions for Joy and Pleasure to arise, give the space, and allow them to arise when and if they will. They will not arise at the same frequency for everyone. Depending on life situation, various other factors, and how much buried trauma and such is stored in your subconscious, it can take longer or less time.

You indicated that you had trouble to detect breath sensations.

If you cannot feel enough sensation at the tip of the nose, you can add in other sensations to help you, to indicate when a breath starts and stops. There are a large number of sensations related that occur during an in/out cycle. There is nothing wrong with being aware of some other sensations from other spots, that are related to the breath, in order to bridge you to the next phase of your practice.

As you practice more and more, and your skills deepen, you will probably notice that you can detect much more at the nose tip than before.

Are you able to be aware the breath enough that you can count a full 10 breaths without losing count?

I would suggest that might be your first milestone to shoot for. 10 breaths without losing count.

(The RESULTS will come, it is inevitable! Once the garden is planted, the soil prepared and watered, given time, patience and care, it is inevitable)

• This reply was modified 7 years, 11 months ago by  Ivan Ganza.

[Ivan GanzaMember]

In order for us to help you more effectively:

Please describe 1) The precise steps you are doing when you sit down and 2) Your experience of the session as progresses

We need to know the details of what is happening when you are sitting.

Cheers,
-Ivan/ (DT Teacher in Training)

[Ivan GanzaMember]

Good points 😉

If you have never been on retreat, best to test the waters with a 7 or 10 day retreat, before commit to a longer period such as a month.

The person who decides about the month retreat will not be the person who experiences it.

Retreat can be very beneficial but also extremely difficult when the deep inner stuff is dislodged. Wiley makes some good points. Retreat is hard enough without having to deal with religious and cultural baggage.

Cheers,
-Ivan/

(DT Teacher in Training)

[Ivan GanzaMember]

Greetings,

I noticed your posts on Reddit as well (I am WayOfMind on Reddit….)

I’m not sure what your actually asking? What are you looking for here?

What you describe are meditation experiences. They come, they go. Not much is to be made from it. They can be signs of progress.

Seems you are trying to come to some definitive answer about what’s happening, or am I misunderstanding?

Just keep going, the more you have various experiences, the more experience gained, the more it will all link together and be clear what is happening. Also listen up and read up from MANY different sources, so you can have a deep and wide understanding of various translations and such.

Experiences are experiences.

Insight is golden.

Cheers,
-Ivan/

(DT Teacher in Training)

• This reply was modified 8 years, 3 months ago by  Ivan Ganza.

[Ivan GanzaMember]

The reality distortions you describe are typical experiences that may or may not happen. They are a good sign but not much needs to be made of it, except, to remain aware and continue the practice appropriate for you.

Based on what you wrote, I am wondering why you think stage 9 practice is appropriate at this point?

You mentioned Jhana, fruitions and stage 9 meditation on the mind.

In my experience — if one is ready for stage nine, much of the taste of what you described would be somewhat familiar.

Can you let us know some of your practice history? Have you practiced with a teacher? Learning strictly from the book? How long you have practiced? Have you been on retreat?

Thanks,
-Ivan/

(DT Teacher in Training)

[Ivan GanzaMember]

The calm before the storm. All is quiet, there is the possibility that anything could happen. Still and silent.

Then BOOM, CRACK, lighting streaks the sky. Rain is falling…

The two states, resting and non-resting, hard to describe with words. Have to be experienced. Taste them. You will know it.

—
(DT Teacher in Training)

• This reply was modified 8 years, 4 months ago by  Ivan Ganza.
• This reply was modified 8 years, 4 months ago by  Ivan Ganza.

[Ivan GanzaMember]

Jonathan,

No worries — I only posted so others might follow the thread when reading it…no need to delete it 😉

[Ivan GanzaMember]

This thread has moved to Reddit now: https://m.reddit.com/r/TheMindIlluminated/comments/5g5g6x/hello_and_questions/

(Trying to keep the comm channels in sync)

[Ivan GanzaMember]

We invest a huge amount of time and energy in our current ‘world view’. Spending an entire life building it up….

It is only natural there will be some resistance to the idea of dropping that view for something else. That is actually a healthy survival mechanism.

You’ll need to find a way deep inside yourself — a way to open to the possibility current assumptions are not correct assumptions. It can be very uncomfortable to entertain that possibility, scary even.

Can you open to the possibility things are not as they seem? Open to that space? Who knows what will fill it…

This opening is not a ‘conceptual’ opening….more like letting go…empty your glass….you don’t need to fill it with something else right away…it’s alright if it is empty for a while….

Cheers,
-Ivan/ (DT Teacher in Training)

[Ivan GanzaMember]

Well said 😉

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