Stage 4 Questions

[NickMember]

Hello all. I have a few questions related to my practice in stage 4.

The first is around the labelling practice in stage 3. I was unsure whether I should be continuing this in stage 4? Labelling seemed to help me significantly progress. Since I’ve stopped labelling in stage 4, I sometimes feel like I’ve gone backwards in terms of introspective peripheral awareness. Should I go back to labelling, or does this actually hinder development of continual introspective awareness?

My second question is about time scales of attention. If my attention switches to something that is not my breath for half a second, and then back to the breath, is that a subtle distraction, a gross distraction or forgetting? If I consider the half second in isolation, then I wasn’t thinking about the breath at all, which means it’s forgetting. If I consider that I was focusing on the breath before and after then it would have been a subtle distraction. Does the answer to this question change if my attention focuses on something else for a full second?

Related to the above, I’ve been asking myself the question “What am I thinking?” to pay attention to the movements of my mind and notice subtle distractions before they become gross distractions. Doing so causes me to switch my focus for a half second before focusing back on the breath. Is doing this creating a subtle distraction, gross distraction, or even forgetting? Is this a bad practice in stage 4?

Finally, I recently noticed that I developed the habit of breathing through my nose just a little more loudly than is necessary, as this makes it easier to keep the breath in peripheral awareness, should my attention be caught by a subtle distraction, by listening to my breath. Is this a bad habit? Is it a good thing to do? Should I instead breath through my nose more quietly?

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated!

[ShinkaiMember]

Hi Nick!
I think I can answer most of your questions based on what I remember from TMI.

I think labelling gross distractions when you’ve been completely distracted from the meditation object is always a good idea. From Stage 4 onwards gross distractions don’t come up, so when you temporarily slip back down into earlier stages and gross distractions start cropping up again, it’s always good practice to label. I think labelling subtle distractions, when the meditation object is still in the centre of your attention, isn’t necessary; only when a distraction has captured your attention and made you forget the breath. Subtle distractions you should just allow to come and go into background awareness as they please.

It’s a good question about time scales! I think in practice it’s unusual for attention to switch so completely from being 100% on the breath to being 100% lost in a distraction quickly – usually this is something that takes a good few seconds. If you catch it just as your mind is switching, but when your attention still contains the breath, it’s a subtle distraction, but if you forgot your breath and find the experience is one of remembering you were supposed to be meditating, rather than a more subtle shift of attention back to exclusivity on the breath, then it’s a gross distraction. But time scales aren’t as important as the degree of attention to the meditation object – a very emotionally charged thought or something like that could obviously capture your complete attention very immediately.

Asking the question of what you’re thinking sounds like ‘checking in’ – switching to introspective awareness to scan for subtle distractions before they turn into gross distractions, and doing this often enough that it becomes automatic is one of the main practice goals for stage 3. In Stage 4, you want to develop continuous introspective awareness so that subtle distractions can be acknowledged whenever they pop up.

As for the breathing thing, Culadasa recommends not worrying about any changes in your breath that happen, for instance, subtly lengthening the breath to observe it more easily, etc. as long as you didn’t consciously intend to do it. Your unconscious will do that sort of thing when it picks up on your intentions to follow the breath, and it’s not ‘you’ doing it. Just keep your attention on it like normal and don’t worry about it if it starts to change.

Hope that helps! 🙂
Ollie

• This reply was modified 6 years, 2 months ago by  Shinkai.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 2 months ago by  Shinkai.

[Meshe MooetteMember]

Hi Nick!

If the slightly loud breathing is intentional, it would be best to stop that habit and allow the breath to be natural and un-controlled. I agree with Ollie’s comments above regarding the breath.

Use labelling as frequently as you feel you are in a stage 3 type of sit. When things become more stable, then try letting go of it and apply stage 4 intentions, to see if you can maintain continuous introspective awareness.

It sounds like you are becoming aware of alternating attention- something that stage 6 practise addresses, and that we allow to be there up to (and including) stage 5 practise. It’s a good sign, so please don’t drive yourself crazy as so many of us do with the timescales. A novice meditator feels they are paying attention to two things, but now it sounds like you are noticing the micro-movements of attention between your chosen object and other objects. Also, since you are starting to notice alternating attention, it can serve as a sign/reminder to renew your intention to focus on breath sensations, before the alternating attention turns into a scattering of attention to distracting objects.

So you are using the mental phrase “what am I thinking” to develop continuous introspective awareness?

[NickMember]

Hi Shinkai and Meshe. Thanks so much both of you for your thoughts.

I do notice quick and fast movement of attention. These quick movements seem to prevent me from being aware of two things at once (attention + peripheral awareness). I seem to notice that even though my attention is only diverted quickly, it is diverted wholly to peripheral awareness (intro or extrospective). For example, when I try to focus on both the breath and noticing the thoughts of my mind, I find it more or less impossible to do both, and it seems like I’m just rapidly alternating between the two. Or alternatively I’ll be focusing on the breath (and not worrying as much about introspective awareness), and then I notice my mind is having a thought, but this noticing is itself a (rapid) movement of attention away from the breath. All of these things happen very rapidly, and I did read the moments of consciousness model interlude (but not stages 5 or 6), so I’m not sure if they are normal subtle distractions (as they would be if I considered a timescale of a few seconds) or if they are forgetting (which it would be if I considered a timescale of half a second, as in that half a second I’m only noticing/paying attention to the fact that I noticed another thought).

It wasn’t intentional, but as soon as I noticed alternating attention, I was asking myself “What am I thinking?”. What I really meant by this is, what *is* the alternating attention I’m noticing? And then I realise I’m asking myself a question and not focusing on the breath. And this is basically the situation I’ve described above because I can’t seem to focus on the breath and notice the arising alternating of attention in the exact same moment.

So the loop is:
1. Focusing on the breath -> 2. Notice subtle distraction arising -> 3. Examine the alternating attention and ask myself what the subtle distraction is or look inside my mind and examine where it came from. -> 4. Realise in the same instant that I can’t examine my mind and focus on the breath, unless I let the breath slip into peripheral awareness.

I was breathing through my nose a little more loudly than normal (without realising it until recently) because it was easier to keep the breath in peripheral awareness while in step 4 of the above loop. So I’m not sure if I should cut out step 4, because TMI stage 4 says to pay attention to all the movements of the mind. But the paying attention to the movement is also a loss of attention to the breath in that fleeting moment, which to me sounds like forgetting, unless of course forgetting should be measured in timescales of 2-3 seconds or more.

From what you’re saying Meshe, it sounds like maybe this is not forgetting but rapid movement of attention which is fine and I should ignore in stage 4? or have I simply not yet developed the power to have attention on both the breath and my mind in the same instant?

Apologies for the long-winded explanation, I hope it makes sense, and I do sincerely appreciate any input.

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