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This topic contains 15 replies, has 6 voices, and was last updated by Black Ghost 7 years, 3 months ago.
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July 18, 2017 at 1:30 am #2052
Hello,
I’d be grateful if anyone here can help with the following as I’m really struggling with the practise – I’ve been working with TMI since the start of the year but have been practising for around 4 years in total.
I’ve stopped practising a couple of times for a few weeks at a time lately – there’s something about mediation which I’ve struggled with from the start and I’m not sure exactly what it is. I’ve been thinking about the guidance in the book to see and generate joy where possible and I don’t know whether failure to do this is an issue. I initially started practicing due to issues with depression and anxiety and I just can’t seem to notice any pleasurable aspects of sitting the vast majority of the time and it therefore seems so difficult to keep on sitting day after day when this is the case.
The other main issue is I’m still not feeling hardly any sensation at the nose (or in the abdomen when I tried switching to that). Not being able to feel the start/end or anything much makes it so hard to keep any attention there and makes connecting/following etc so difficult. I’ve tried labelling, counting etc but nothing seems to help.
I’ve setup a mindfulness reminder to go off every couple of hours and although I can be present and notice some feelings in my body, I don’t really get any positive feelings when doing so. I had an interview with a teacher a while ago who said when he practiced mindfulness through the day he would notice some pleasure in these moments – he admitted it would be difficult to maintain a practice when there is no positive feedback from sitting or practise in daily life. I can see why there is the 6 point preparation in the book but they seem empty when I’m seeing no progress toward these reasons for practice. Most people seem to see some progress and/or derive some positive feelings from practice but when neither are happening I’m not sure I’m going to be able to keep up the effort.
I’ve tried incorporating the compassion practice recently but am having similar problems with that too – being able to generate the feelings and keeping focussed on the task. I tried doing some walking meditation but if anything that felt more difficult than sitting.
I listened to the meditation and joy series of talks by Culadasa but I can’t say it made any difference. I’ve listened to so many talk, read quite a few books and attended lots of courses/talks on meditation and Buddhism over the last few years, as well as taking refuge but although it all makes sense, none of it seems to make any difference when it comes to practice. Thanks.
July 18, 2017 at 9:02 am #2053In order for us to help you more effectively:
Please describe 1) The precise steps you are doing when you sit down and 2) Your experience of the session as progresses
We need to know the details of what is happening when you are sitting.
Cheers,
-Ivan/ (DT Teacher in Training)July 18, 2017 at 9:43 am #2054Hello,
Well, a few thoughts and questions for you.
Firstly, what is your motivation for all of the hard work you have already put into your meditation practice over the course of 4 full years – what has driven you so far along this path, to begin with? Whatever this is, can you use this as a daily motivator to be on the cushion?
Secondly, and more difficult, can you let go of the desire for results in your practice – whether it is feeling sensations of the breath or sensations of pleasure. Can you try to sit with simply an objective to diligently follow the practice, whatever stage you are at, disregarding the common desire for achievement, success, results and the feeling of pleasure while sitting? The point here is that if it is an effective practice alone, then when done correctly and systematically, results will follow and there is no need to put the cart (results) before the horse (practice).
I have also put a lot of stake in looking for results to my meditation, and like you have been thwarted in my rewards, so I’ve relaxed a lot and simply do it, and it has been a joy to sit again. Ask yourself why you should expect a pleasurable feeling from meditation – just because it happened to someone else? For myself, meditation is about practice, not the results. I like my sit when I look back on it and say that I practiced what I was supposed to.
Finally, do these feelings of not enjoying the work or not getting the ‘supposed’ results, apply to other areas of your life, or is what you are describing solely related to your meditation practice? If it is similar to other areas of your life (work, relationships, housing, location etc.) then let’s not work only on the meditation component but the larger picture too. If indeed these experiences of lack of positive feedback are only on the cushion then that gives us something to work with here in this forum.
Thanks,
Michael (Dharma Treasure Teacher in Training)July 18, 2017 at 12:54 pm #2055–Please describe 1) The precise steps you are doing when you sit down and 2) Your experience of the session as progresses
We need to know the details of what is happening when you are sitting.–Many thanks for the reply Ivan.
I was doing around 45 mins per day prior to TMI and started off with 3x40min daily sessions when I started TMI – that lasted a couple of months and I started to struggle and practice has been inconsistent since.I go through through the 4 step transition – my attention wanders a fair bit from the various meditation objects during this period and I don’t find it easy to locate bodily sensations, especially in stages 3 and 4. I then try to hold any sensations around the nose in attention whilst not shutting down PA. I feel so little at the nose that I can’t notice the start/end of a cycle, I just feel the odd vague sensation – it seems my mind gets easily bored of this and my attention is quickly lost.
I haven’t felt able to do much connecting/following because of this. I’ve tried labelling and counting without much luck – I could keep my attention on the counting during the first couple of months but that didn’t last and my attention was mainly on the counting itself due to feeling so little bodily sensations. I’ve tried to notice/generate joy/pleasure but I haven’t managed to do so.
I have always frequently found myself just giving up and cutting sits short as all of the above doesn’t feel right somehow – it feels like I can’t bear to carry on. It’s probably a mixture of frustration, finding no positive qualities in sitting, lack of feeling sensations, lack of being able to keep anything in attention, lack of faith in me being able to practice. All this makes it feel too uncomfortable to continue if that makes any sense.
The problem isn’t just limited to the nose though – with all the various types of practice I’ve done my ability to hold attention on any object has always been very weak and hasn’t improved over time.
I’ve been meaning to add the 6 point prep to the start – I do keep in mind why I’m practising but I’m not sure whether I now believe much will change if I carry on due to 4 years of sitting with very little, if any, change.
Maybe I should add that now and again I get the vibration in the hands and I have a period of mental clarity when my mind calms down and I have a better ability to hold something in attention. The first time I experienced this was soon after starting sitting so I can’t say it’s any sign of progress over time. I’m aware these experiences aren’t the goal of practice though. Having said that, I can see how those kind of positive feelings would be be the kind of thing that would aid motivation to continue practising if they happened regularly but for the vast amount of my sits, they just feel the opposite of this – no positive feelings, very little stability of attention and a struggle. I’m aware one of the aims is to sit with whatever is going on but usually what’s going on seems too difficult to sit with.
I hope that’s enough detail. Thanks.July 18, 2017 at 2:19 pm #2056Thanks for the details.
So a couple of points.
First off, I think Michael was right on the money, and I hope he will chime in again.
It sounds like your expectations may be preventing your meditation practice from deepening. It is as if you plant your garden, water it, then the next day start digging up the soil to check if the plants have started growing. In the context of meditation practice, expectations can hold us back.
Can you find a way to engage with your practice with no expectation of result? It is not the usual way we think in western society, but it is necessary. Focus on the method, not the result.
You often talk about generating positive feelings/joy/etc. As you probably are already aware from the book — YOU simply cannot do that. All you can do is setup the conditions for Joy and Pleasure to arise, give the space, and allow them to arise when and if they will. They will not arise at the same frequency for everyone. Depending on life situation, various other factors, and how much buried trauma and such is stored in your subconscious, it can take longer or less time.
You indicated that you had trouble to detect breath sensations.
If you cannot feel enough sensation at the tip of the nose, you can add in other sensations to help you, to indicate when a breath starts and stops. There are a large number of sensations related that occur during an in/out cycle. There is nothing wrong with being aware of some other sensations from other spots, that are related to the breath, in order to bridge you to the next phase of your practice.
As you practice more and more, and your skills deepen, you will probably notice that you can detect much more at the nose tip than before.
Are you able to be aware the breath enough that you can count a full 10 breaths without losing count?
I would suggest that might be your first milestone to shoot for. 10 breaths without losing count.
(The RESULTS will come, it is inevitable! Once the garden is planted, the soil prepared and watered, given time, patience and care, it is inevitable)
- This reply was modified 7 years, 3 months ago by Ivan Ganza.
July 19, 2017 at 12:50 am #2058Hi Michael, many thanks for your reply.
–Firstly, what is your motivation for all of the hard work you have already put into your meditation practice over the course of 4 full years – what has driven you so far along this path, to begin with? Whatever this is, can you use this as a daily motivator to be on the cushion?–
Initially (and still) it was to help with depression and anxiety. Then I studied a fair bit of Buddhism and also wanted to improve my behaviour and my mind. I still am very interested in both meditation and Buddhism and I’m in no doubt that practice benefits many people but it hasn’t been the case for me – from the start it’s not felt right somehow (not that I know what it ‘should’ be like, if anything). This struggle I’ve had hasn’t been enough to keep a consistent daily practice despite my interest in following the path.
–Secondly, and more difficult, can you let go of the desire for results in your practice – whether it is feeling sensations of the breath or sensations of pleasure. Can you try to sit with simply an objective to diligently follow the practice, whatever stage you are at, disregarding the common desire for achievement, success, results and the feeling of pleasure while sitting? The point here is that if it is an effective practice alone, then when done correctly and systematically, results will follow and there is no need to put the cart (results) before the horse (practice).I have also put a lot of stake in looking for results to my meditation, and like you have been thwarted in my rewards, so I’ve relaxed a lot and simply do it, and it has been a joy to sit again. Ask yourself why you should expect a pleasurable feeling from meditation – just because it happened to someone else? For myself, meditation is about practice, not the results. I like my sit when I look back on it and say that I practiced what I was supposed to.–
I’ve read a lot about expectations and results but I can’t say it makes much difference. If I either found some pleasure in sitting or I could see some progress that would help me to keep on practising but with the absence of both my drive to keep sitting is being outweighed by the difficulties I’m having with the practice.
–Finally, do these feelings of not enjoying the work or not getting the ‘supposed’ results, apply to other areas of your life, or is what you are describing solely related to your meditation practice? If it is similar to other areas of your life (work, relationships, housing, location etc.) then let’s not work only on the meditation component but the larger picture too. If indeed these experiences of lack of positive feedback are only on the cushion then that gives us something to work with here in this forum.–
The feelings are probably similar in other aspects of life, at least with work and relationships. I’m finding it very hard to get anything done – I have the motivation and want to do things but find it very difficult for some reason to get much done and I’m really struggling with my lack of willpower. I’m out of work due to various health issues, I spend most of my time alone.
A note re Ivan’s reply (thanks again) – yes I could keep count of 10 breaths, but the counting itself was the main thing that held my attention due to the lack of physical sensations. After a couple of months my ability to do this declined for some reason and my attention weakened. I think this might be something to do with losing interest in practicing – I usually find it harder and harder as the days go by and notice after I’ve taken a break or starting a different practice that I have a bit more enthusiasm and usually start off with a bit more ability to hold attention but it then fades again as time goes on.
Although some expectation is an issue it seems the biggest hurdle is the uncomfortable feeling I often get when sitting – it’s hard to describe but having no pleasure from sitting and a feeling of a strong kind of boredom/dissatisfaction often feels like I’d rather be doing anything else and it feels almost painful to carry on sitting if that makes any sense. I’ve felt this not all the time, but frequently over the past 4 years.
July 19, 2017 at 10:27 am #2059Sitting will not always be comfortable, especially at beginning stages. Those feelings of discomfort are most likely related to a majority of sub-minds not being onboard with your intention to sit and meditate.
How can you deal with it?
If you energize the discomfort by thinking of it as a hurdle and resisting it, the effect is to energize the discomfort more, and give validity to the idea those sub-minds have of resisting the intention to meditate.
Instead, do not energize those feelings of discomfort/boredom/dissatisfaction– let them come, let them be, let them go.
Give them space.
This is actually an extremely valuable opportunity for insight! You have something to work with. Can you just allow the discomfort/boredom/dissatisfaction to be, as they are, do what they will, without getting involved?
Overtime, if you do not energize them, and practice what is outlined in the book as appropriate for your stage, they should eventually be highly reduced, and finally dissipate all together.
Just do it. Just do the practice as outlined. Do your best to NOT get involved with what comes up.
- This reply was modified 7 years, 3 months ago by Ivan Ganza.
July 19, 2017 at 11:46 am #2061I would like to add a couple of things to the good advice that you have gotten from Michael and Ivan. It seems like you could benefit from developing more mindfulness. I recommend reading the Third Interlude – How Mindfulness works in The Mind Illuminated. This will give you information about the benefits of mindfulness.
I recommend the following exercise. Have the intention to have a more spacious awareness while noticing the breath sensations, so that you are aware of other things in your environment, and what your mind is doing. As soon as you notice that your attention moves away from from the sensations of the breath, use a simple label to notice where it goes. For example, if it moves to a sound, label “hearing”. If it moves to a thought, label “thinking”. Most importantly, notice when it moves to an emotion and label “aversion” or “dissatisfaction” depending on the emotion. After you notice it and label it, gently bring your attention back to the breath.
If your labeling reveals a persistent emotion, that keeps drawing your attention, then make the emotion your meditation object. Emotions are made up of self talk or mental images combined with sensations in the body. For example, most of us have felt “butterflies” in the stomach when nervous or a constriction in the body when angry. The thoughts tend to perpetuate the body sensations and vice versa.
Emotions like aversion are a little more subtle to feel, but there is a physical component to those as well. The feeling in the body and the thoughts associated with those emotions tend to multiply, and this can totally overwhelm us. When you are examining emotions it helps to get curious, and to try to be objective (using a mental label can help keep us more objective). For example, when you feel an emotion in your body, is the sensation constant or does it change. Is it a tingling, burning or constricted sensation. When the thoughts arise, label them as “thinking”. If you start to get overwhelmed you can actually say the label out loud.
When the emotion dissipates, gently return to the breath.
As to the difficulty feeling the breath sensations, you may have expectations about what the breath sensations should feel like instead of what they actually do feel like. For example, at first you may only feel a couple of minor tingling or vibratory sensation at the nostrils. If so, this is it. If you don’t feel anything, then just wait patiently for something to arise.
I recommend getting curious and exploring what breathing feels like as if you are a child breathing for the first time. Try just sitting and noticing if you are breathing in or out. If you are breathing in, what sensations in the body tell you that you are doing this? Do the same thing with the out breath. I think sometimes we expect the sensations of breathing to be stronger or more distinct than they actually are. It can also help to let the breath sensations come to you instead of you finding them.
I know it can be difficult when you are depressed, but I recommend trying to find some sort of activity to get involved with. This could be volunteer work or finding a meditation group to sit with. Exercise can also be helpful.
Please let us know if we can be of further assistance.
Blake – Dharma Treasure Teacher
July 20, 2017 at 10:19 am #2063Thanks for the replies – I very much appreciate them.
Ivan – the answer to the question, can I allow these feelings to be there without getting involved, is sometimes yes, sometimes no. I can sit with them at times but it seems when I struggle with for example particularly strong rumination, I normally find I haven’t been able to sit with this state of mind and I end up walking away. Also when the symptoms of depression are particularly high, these feelings are often stronger than my ability to practice with them.
As you can probably imagine, I’ve sought advice for these issues over the years so am familiar with the suggestion to allow the difficult feelings be – it’s always useful to be reminded of this however. I suspect that I struggle so much with them, maybe not so much because of the strength of them but more likely that my ability to withstand them is really weak at times. Since I’ve had the various health issues my powers of determination/willpower etc seems very much diminished. I will try and bear your points in mind however and see what happens.
Blake – thanks for the advice, I will read through it again and try it out as well as the chapter re-read. I’ve only recently setup a mindful reminder bell to go off every couple of hours – for some reason I’ve resisted doing this for a long time and haven’t taken to off the cushion mindfulness practice. Due to the sitting struggles it’s often been the case that I haven’t felt up to to facing mindful behaviour through the day as well (I usually resort to distracting behaviour instead) which I know doesn’t help.
I’ve tried the volunteering/Dharma group/exercise routes – I’ve not seen any improvement unfortunately, nor has medication or talking therapy. I know that mindfulness practices help a great deal of people with depression and anxiety issues but I don’t remember reading many accounts of these issues feeling like such a barrier to practicing, which has often been my experience.
Regards.
July 20, 2017 at 3:53 pm #2064
AnonymousHI Black Ghost,
I think you have brought up some very important and practical issues. It is my guess that many meditators, who come to the practice, due to depression, have faced the same barrier. I want to thank you for posting and so clearly articulating your experiences.
In my personal experience, all I can say, is that, with moderate to severe depression, it will take a lot of practice hours. Anti-depressants,cognitive therapy, volunteering, etc. did not help me either. I came to meditation as a last resort. I had to make a leap of faith, that if I just keep putting in the time and effort there will be a decrease in the amount of suffering that I experience. Slowly, almost grudgingly, this is proving to be true.
I also want to say that many people make very good suggestions to you to help you deal with depression. You know that they are right, that whatever they suggest to you, would be helpful…but it is just beyond your level of resilience to do them. Don’t be hard on yourself if you on unable to do the things that are wisely suggested to you. File the suggestions away for that time in the future when you are better able to take advantage of the opportunities for gaining increased vitality, joy and connection. Just do what you can do now, and you are doing a lot.
Please don’t give up, you are doing what you need to do. Unfortunately, it will just take longer than you think you can bear. It is very hard, but it is the way forward.
Please keep posting and let me know how you are doing.
Colleen Vaughn, Dharma Treasure, Teacher in Training
July 20, 2017 at 11:17 pm #2066Hello Black Ghost.
I’m sorry to hear you are having such difficulty and also amazed that you have persevered so long with so little apparent progress. I have a few suggestions that look at your challenges from a number of different angles, hopefully one of which may resonate with you and help.
The first, especially since you are suffering from depression, is to perhaps find a nice relaxing and yet inspirational youtube meditation to listen to. I have found the taking the burden of guiding your process yourself and giving it to the voice you are listening to, can make learning to meditate much more effortless. You will know its time to find a shorter induction method or to just do it one your own when you start ignoring the voice because its slowing you down, you are moving forward into the sequence before the voice gets you there.
The second is your lack of being able to sense your breath or breathing sensations or bodily sensations suggests you are not that well embodied and may benefit from adding something physical to your meditation regime. That might mean doing some power walking, biking, or jogging. You would likely benefit more however from doing some Yoga which places emphasis on slow and connected breathing and sensing. Or even better, find someone who does expressive movement type sessions, which are designed to bring about embodiment and expression. Studies have shown that doing anything physical that stresses the body to grow either cardiovascularly or muscle wise will improve mood and concentration.
The third suggestions speaks directly to your depression and anxiety and expression. I have worked in the Mind-Body area for decades and make my living as a therapist and life coach and I have come to see most depression as resulting from some unresolved issue being constantly activated but never properly expressed and resolved. Most talking therapies do not do a good job at accessing and helping the emotional system express itself and that is ultimately seems to be critical for any major healing to take place. That one reason I suggested the expressive therapy and expressive movement, besides helping with embodiment they can also help with your emotional healing. You might also try out a psycho-dynamic therapy such as emotionally focused therapy, EMDR, etc. You can not talk or rationalize yourself out of most depressions or anxiety states, but you can learn to clear and resolve long standing emotional traumas and feeling beliefs that may be hijacking your life. If you want to explore what feelings may be bothering you I have an online form I have been developing that may be useful. Let me know and I will post it for you.
All the best
Doug Tataryn, Ph.D., Dharma Treasure Teacher in Training.
July 21, 2017 at 7:31 am #2067Thanks again for the replies.
Hi Colleen, I’m sorry to hear you’ve had similar issues but pleased to hear the meditation has benefitted you – it’s good to hear. It must have been really tough to put in the effort you describe. At the moment my willpower reserves seem shot so I’m not sure what I’ll be able to do but I’ll have a think about the various suggestions on here and try to give them a go – thanks for the advice.
Hi Doug, I will try a few guided meditations out – i have been meaning to but it’s another thing on my list that’s not been done yet. I have tried some before and had similar struggles with them but maybe if I can try a few more I can find some that I find easier to practice with when I’m struggling with regular practice. I’ll have a look into the types of physical activities you mention – I have done a little Tai Chi so I should look into doing something similar or something along the lines of your suggestions – I’m a bit limited due to some other health issues with regard to some physical activity, including yoga which I used to do, but there should still be a few options available. I’ve recently started some Schema Therapy which may be along the lines of what you suggest? It sounds like it may be although I’ve no idea whether it will be of any help as yet. I’d be interested in looking at the form you mention if you would like to message me on here – many thanks.
I was thinking about the comment from Ivan regarding not being able to generate joy/pleasure. I thought I’d read somewhere early on in the book something along the lines of an instruction to notice and generate any positive sensations/feelings. I’m not sure if it was this section (p49) or another:
‘As you move through these four steps, always remember to relax your body, calm your mind, and deliberately evoke feelings of contentment.It’s like gradually settling into a spa. Continually notice any pleasant sensations contributing to a sense of relaxation, well-being, and overall happiness. As you will learn, relaxation and happiness play an important role in the process of training the mind.’I’m not sure exactly what ‘deliberately evoke feelings of contentment’ means. If anyone has any tips on this, it would be useful as I generally don’t notice the pleasant sensations mentioned.
Regards.
July 21, 2017 at 10:12 am #2068Hello,
I was thinking about this thread this morning, and really liked Colleen’s input.
In response to your latest question, as part of the 6 step preliminary process, the last is to settle the body in the meditation posture, and at this time it is great to simply impart a smile on the face. Yes, it may seem contrived, so don’t make it a huge grin, just a smile of pleasantness. Using the body this way will ease the mind into a positive space – “deliberately evoking feelings of contentment”.
Another way to do this is to recall another experience that may have created this contentment, like being in a spa (I never have but substitute something else). Be sure to not lose this smile during your practice, so recall it at some point and bring it back. Do this throughout the day too, while walking, driving etc…
July 22, 2017 at 3:33 am #2069Hi Black Ghost, Schema therapy sounds like they are pointing in the right direction but given its a descendant of CBT and more traditional lines of psychoanalytic therapies they may be a bit too much on the talk and not enough on the body and the emotions. There are some lineages of therapy that have specialized in accessing the more raw emotional material. These include bioenergetics, somatic release therapy, and at the more extreme, rebirthing, which use the breath to access repressed material. If you can access one of these types ot may give you the leverage into your system you have not previously. Newer, more experimental therapies that are gaining a good reputation for helping chronic depression are ketamine therapy (administered intravenously) and trans-cutanious electrical stimulation therapy.
Also to really get the stem-cell inducing benefit of exercise my understanding is it needs to be more intense than tai chi. Something that gets you heart going more strongly, power walking, weight lifting, etc.
I will PM you on the forms I mentioned.
All the best,
Doug Tataryn, Ph.D., Dharma Treasure Teacher in Training.
July 22, 2017 at 1:49 pm #2070Hi Black Ghost,
At the risk of overloading you with information, Culadasa has a series of guided meditations and talks available here.
http://feeds.feedburner.com/Culadasa
I listened to the first one, and I think it could help you develop more mindfulness.
Blake – Dharma Treasure Teacher
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