[Jevan PMember]

Meshe,

Did you do this noting before/during/ or after you work with TMI? I ask because, I’d like to avoid the dark night, which is my biggest concern with doing noting practice. Did you go go the the progress of insight while doing noting? Did you have a dark night? How was it to return to TMI afterwards? Easier?

[Jevan PMember]

Would love a survey on this. My background is in Psychological Research, let me know if I can help in anyway.

I would want questions on hours spent meditating and progress through the stages. Of course, previous meditation experience is a huge confounding variable, so we would need to ask about that as well. Also whether people have various psychological conditions such as ADHD, anxiety, depression, bipolar. Outcome measures such as happiness, levels of stress etc.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 1 month ago by  Jevan P.

[Jevan PMember]

Which model of fourth path are we talking about? I think Culadasa has a pretty good model which is a secularized version of the ten fetter model, there is also Daniel Ingram’s, and the larger Mahasi crowd, and then the tradidional ten fetter model, and then Jeffery Martin’s 4th location, etc. As well as the Sutta descriptions of an arahant which include various ethical dimensions..Arahat is unable to kill someone, an arahat will die if he doesn’t join a monastery in two weeks time after obtaining arahatship, and various other weird criteria.

So perhaps it is more fruitful to talk about the cessation of suffering. What is actually possible? Shinzen Young brings up a scenario where you take a person, pin him to a board and then torture him for six months straight with pliers, knives, etc. Daniel Ingram envisions a similar scenario where a person is burned with battery acid after having their skin raked off. Is there anyone who would not suffer the slightest bit in these situations? Daniel doesn’t think so. Shinzen is skeptical too, but says “maybe it can be done” but he doesn’t know anyone who could.

But wait a minute you say! That’s physical pain, even the Buddha suffered physical pain! Let’s just talk just about mental pain, the second arrow!

But would anyone not suffer the slightest mental anguish in the above scenarios? Or what if they themselves suffered no physical pain but where to watch their entire family be tortured in front of them? Not the slightest bit of suffering? Not the slightest bit of stress, irritation, worry?

Consider me skeptical.

In Jeffery Martin’s research, there are those who claim to not have any emotions like Gary Weber, but even these people do display symptoms of being stressed during stressful times by others like their spouses, who say they don’t sleep as well and other signs of being stressed.

I once asked Bhante Gunaratana if he knew anyone who was fully enlightened, and he said “No”, but that he knows people who have been pretty close. Perhaps that’s the best humans can realistically hope for. And that’s fine. It’s still a great life.

[Jevan PMember]

” I mean if no one could overcome those deep rooted psychological urges like survival, then no one would ever commit suicide. I know that’s a morbid example, but nonetheless, I do believe that true awakening is a real thing.”

Have these people overcome their deep rooted psychological urges, or have these urges just been overwhelmed by a more intense desire to end some sort of pain/suffering?

I’ve never heard of anyone who was just so content and free from craving that they stopped eating,moving, and just shat themselves until they died. Have you?

“I certainly believe it is possible to become fully enlightened”

Then we should have some real, living example right? Who is this person who is ‘fully’ enlightened? And how would we verify it? What exactly does fully enlightened mean? What exact cravings and aversions would they still have/no longer have etc..

Or do you think it is just ‘possible’, but no one alive has attained such a state?

• This reply was modified 8 years, 1 month ago by  Jevan P.
• This reply was modified 8 years, 1 month ago by  Jevan P.

[Jevan PMember]

The simplest answer is that no one truly ceases all desire or craving, such as those from deep rooted biological urges, like eating, moving, or not peeing your pants. Instead the fully enlightened being will have ceased craving and desire *based on delusion*. And then we can ask just which desires are based on delusions? Is the desire for others to be happy a delusion? And further, does anyone really get ‘fully’ awakened? Perhaps not.

[Jevan PMember]

“Now, how does this No-Self justify having no self-interest any more (and being relaxed and in bliss)? Or alternatively, what is wrong or missing in my understanding of No-self?”

It’s the difference between saying “I’m angry” and “there is anger arising”. The first one, will lead to more thoughts that tend to aggravate that anger…the second one will not stroke the fires and the anger will dissipate instead of get inflamed.

[Jevan PMember]

I just wanted to chime in and say that Jeremy Graves’ post was one of the better posts I’ve seen regarding Awakening on any internet forum.

I’d also like to say that love being an affective outcome of practicing the brahmavirahas is pretty easy to understand, but it is not clear why love is an affective outcome from the cessation of craving. And I think this confuses a lot of people, myself included. I can see how the cessation of craving leads to immense peacefulness, but the connection to ‘love’ is a bit fuzzy. Jeremy, do you know why, perhaps from the standpoint of cognitive science why this connection exists?

[Jevan PMember]

Do you really think your chair is conscious?

Also, if panpsychism were true, it would need to be explained why consciousness only appears in your awareness in a specific location, I.e why not in your subconscious (I.E why aren’t you aware of your subconscious?)

• This reply was modified 8 years, 9 months ago by  Jevan P.

[Jevan PMember]

I don’t think that monism leads to panpsychism. After all, how could there be a subconscious mind, if consciousness is everywhere?

[Jevan PMember]

Sure, I guess what I’m having trouble seeing is why does this new understanding of how the mind works make us less interested in our stories? Is it simply because we realize we are creating them?

Btw, myself, I have also gradually becomes less interested in my stories, but I’m not exactly sure why, other than greater concentration and being happier means I ruminate less. The connection between seeing the mind as a collection of subminds versus a permanent self, and why the former makes us less interested in stories is not completely clear.

[Jevan PMember]

Sergey,

1. I HIGHLY recommend treating yourself in healthy ways in addition to your meditation. Exercise is mandatory. Intense exercise is even better, and exercising with friends is best. There was a study done that showed even something as simple as brisk walking for 30 minutes, three times a week was better long-term than antidepressant medication. Start exercising, like right now.

2. Good healthy diet, whole/real foods, no processed crap. I prefer Paleo, but anything in that ballpark will really help.

3. Yes, loving kindness meditation would be great for you.

All of the above should help with your general mood, which will help you deal with any trauma, which will further improve your mood, and on we go with upward spirals of positivity..None of this will cure you immediately, it takes a while to change those neurons in the brain. But you should see improvement pretty quickly.

Meshe,

You are right, it’s probably both.

[Jevan PMember]

Hmm..interesting. So this was going on before your insight? I’m trying to discern whether these are dark night symptoms making themselves manifest because you received insight before you had developed enough concentration, or was this something that has been around for a while.

Do you exercise? Sleep well? Eat healthy?

[Jevan PMember]

What makes the present moment uncomfortable?

[Jevan PMember]

Sergey,

How has this no-self realization impacted your craving/attachment/suffering/well-being?

[Jevan PMember]

Ward,

I re-read ch. 7. I’m not seeing where/how it addresses the hard problem. Where do you think it does?

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