[Andrew CMember]

Hi Sasha,

If you don’t mind to sacrifice a bit, a few things that you could do outside meditation might help with the dullness.

1. Fasting after noon
2. Eating less meat and more vegetables ( The energy that went into processing meat / digesting food is huge. Vegetables are easier to digest )
3. Drink enough water

During meditation
If you are using breathing mindfulness. You could use the following:
At each ending of breathing cycle (breathing in, breathing out), put your focus out onto the external stimuli. This can be traffic sounds, people chatting or wind blowing etc. This will lessen the chance that your mind will grow dull from lack of excitement. As your concentration grows deeper and body becomes very relax, piti will arise and you can stop focusing on external stimuli after each breathing cycle.

Hope this helps.

With metta,
Andrew

• This reply was modified 8 years, 8 months ago by  Andrew C.

[Andrew CMember]

I wanted to give this link and highly suggest listening to the “Meditation and Insight” retreat, just scroll down the window to find it.
It has some really great info about Insight, which is, after all why we meditate in the first place.

Thanks Ivan, this is great. Will give it a listen.

And thanks to all who have been answering my queries.

With Metta,
Andrew

[Andrew CMember]

It can also be experienced as a gradient, where the end of the gradient scale is the very strong physical/mental pliancy being discussed. So you could certainly have the beginnings of pliancy which is allowing a long comfortable sit(2-3 hours). This would very likely be accompanied by pleasant bodily sensations and other phenomena — but is not yet the fully mature pliancy discussed in the later stages.

Thanks Ivan.
I am not sure if that will always stand true. My guess is that this depends on the how absorbed the meditator is at that time. Take for example, a very strong distinguishable noise that occurred during meditation, in most cases would be visible through consciousness though not affecting. This may apply to the strong pain due to posture / flexibility issues such as people who sit in lotus pose or hunching.

[Andrew CMember]

Two clear markers if you have reached the Stages we’re discussing (from what I have heard/read by Culadasa and his advanced students) is that the pleasure experienced at that point is much, much more stronger than sex. Sometimes a powerful energy current of piti loops along the spine and may lead to mild or even severe shaking/convulsions, the bliss can become overwhelming.

Sorry for the late reply. Yes, i had those in meditation with the exception that i wouldn’t term it as pleasure experienced similar to sex but nevertheless it is powerful and could keep your attention just solely on experiencing them. At that time, it’s also effortless to maintain concentration, body is pleasant and so does the mind is free from any distracting thoughts at all or they are rare and barely intruding.

. Another key feature is that the body feels very pleasant and the only time bodily pain comes back is when you end the session, not during it.

I am not sure about this but even in jhana says 2nd – 4th, sometimes distinctable sounds are visible through our consciousness. If we replace the sound with pain, maybe the distinctable pain may be visible as well.

Also remember that just being able to sit for 2 hrs or more without discomfort is not the same as the physical pliancy experienced at Stage 9. For example I’m able to sit for almost 3 hrs on the zafu with little pain, but I’m very far from Stage 9. Still working on mastering Stage 6, have been at it for many months now.

Thanks for the reminder. To my understanding, the piti that arose initially is physical pliancy but as we moved onto the grade 5. The piti that has started in some parts of our body becomes all pervasive(bliss of physical pliancy). It’s the pleasant sensation that allows the body to temporarily absorbed into it and sparing no room to the other consciousness (5 khandas). As time goes, the piti feels a bit too coarse and we turned into mental pleasure instead and progressively the bodily feeling is no longer noticeable and the mental pleasure (sukha / happiness) somehow transformed into a contentment instead.

Thanks for the help. Greatly appreciated.

Andrew.

[Andrew CMember]

I am sorry if i may seem to claim that i have reached a certain stage in the practice.
I have been practicing alone for sometimes with no direction from a direct teacher
and simply following the book published by culadasa.
As time goes, i am using the description in the book to measure where i am
but maybe this is a delusion from my part so i am glad if someone could correct me
or point me to the right direction.

Thanks.

[Andrew CMember]

You could look to sit in a more comfortable way, do all kinds of stretches, basically everything possible to make your sit more comfortable. Maybe eventually you would even be able to hit physical pliancy before the sit became uncomfortable for you.

Thanks Ivan. I tend to think that i have hit physical pliancy. I think that’s the reason why i am able to sit for an hour or so without any issue but to sit even longer than that seems to be a challenge says more than 2 hours.

Can you find a relationship with those sensations where they are just sensations?

I am not sure if i got you here.

Can you notice in your sit the precise point when your sit shits from comfortable to uncomfortable? How does it happen?

Yes, the posture adjusted a bit, before the pain set in. but i reckon this could be a partial issue. I am suspecting that the cushion plays a part too as what the picture described (i have posted above).

What was your mental state before and after?? How does it differ?

Mental state remains the same at that time. If i want to, i could ignore the pain and sit longer but this doesn’t seem right in the long run and
it would be good if i could find a way to prevent this. Maybe a change in a cushion or anything that i can use to prevent this from happening.

Thanks for taking the time to answer this question, appreciated.

[Andrew CMember]

The mental and physical pliancy Ted mentioned is different than what you think. If it were already happening for you, then you wouldn’t be experiencing any bodily discomfort at all during your meditation like you describe. On the contrary there would be intense mental and physical pleasure arising. These are stages 8 and 9 respectively.

Thanks Charles. I understand what Ted means by Mental and Physical pliancy and i have experienced those initially before it subsides to a more smoothing satisfied / contented feel. At that time, the body is still comfortable, serene or feels like it’s resting, there is no mental pain. However, the buttocks areas after a long sit started to feel pain. I have found some info that seems to be relevant to what i am experiencing.

I do believe i have reached stages 8 and 9 consistently (where intense mental and physical pleasure arising) that state would then transformed into a more serene experience like what i have mentioned above.

Just wondering if anyone here, would experience any issues meditating on a mat with a longer sit such as 2 hours or more?

By the way, I’d recommend not using half-lotus or any lotus posture for long sits because you can permanently damage your knees, this is a common mistake many people have made. The burmese pose is a better option for extended sessions. Another great suggestion like Ted said would be to use a chair. You can even do 3-4 hour sits on a chair, if you have already mastered Stage 5 and know how to take care of subtle dullness.

Thanks for the recommendation. I have used lotus posture before and it seems to cause a little bit of a problem with my knee but it seems to work out fine now after i switched to half lotus even with a slightly over an hour sit.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my question.
Appreciated.

[Andrew CMember]

Hi Ted, Thanks for replying. I believed i have attained mental and physical pliancy. This has kept me comfortable sitting for 1 hours and 45 minutes but beyond this point, it seems that the ‘sit bones’ suffers and pained started to arise from the buttock.

When I want to meditate for more than an hour, I do it in a comfy chair. If you are at stage five or later, you should be able to meditate in a relaxed posture without sinking into dullness.

I have no problem sitting for an hour or 1 hour and 30 minutes but only when i extended it to 2 hours, the problem started to arise.

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