[dcurtisMember]

Alex,

That’s kind of where I’m at – zero tolerance. All caffeine does is make me feel like crap, and ruin my sleep. All benefits disappeared months and months ago. Yet there’s the habituated element which keeps me running to something that only interferes with my practice on and off cushion.

[dcurtisMember]

Florian,

Just now seeing this. Thanks for the link. In line with the idea of a caffeine use disorder, I discovered there’s actually a twelve step group for caffeine addicts. Obviously some people are pretty seriously affected. I know it seems absurd to many, I’m sure. Yet, considering the way it affects my moods, sleep etc, I don’t find it so ridiculous.

Anyway, thanks again.

[dcurtisMember]

Thanks to everyone, this has been quite helpful.

Aaron A – I’ll check that out, hopefully it will prove helpful.

Jamie – After listening to many talks by various trust worthy teachers, and working with an ex-monastic as my actual teacher for two years, one thing I’m fairly sure of is that the suttas are written in a kind of a code. Not a literal, actual code. The teacher I worked with (Dhammarato, student of Bhikkhu Buddhadasa) said as much to me. Other monastics have made this point indirectly. There’s what can be understood at the surface level, but there are other levels of meaning for some of the language used, I gave one example in my original post. Some of the difficulty is, as you describe, in the mass of verbiage. Someone should just distill the suttas down, if possible.

JavaJeff – That the version of MN I purchased.

Tony James – That’s helpful but also raises other issues. It’s certainly very interesting.

Alex K – Thank you. I’ve downloaded it to send to my e-reader.

[dcurtisMember]

Florian,

Thanks, it’s really helpful to have your experience mirrored by others. It at least tells me it’s not my mind playing games.

I agree, the best thing is to be done with it. I had my last dose of caffeine on Monday, and I tapered down gradually for a week or so. Strangely, the first two days were no problem. Then today the wheels fell of. It was hell. I got through it, because I can’t stand the way it makes me feel, and the negative impact it has on my practice.

I’ve heard that after you get through the withdrawals, and your body and brain (and adrenals)have fully recovered, you feel great, and you actually have more energy than when you were using caffeine.

Thanks for your reply

[dcurtisMember]

Thank you for the replies both of you. I’m surprised more people don’t have an issue with this, to be honest, as we’re such a heavily caffeinated country and culture. Energy drinks galore, Starbucks on every corner, and independent coffee shops are near ubiquitous.

Apparently I’m just unusually sensitive to the stuff. I have been down to about 10 ounces of strong tea in the morning (after I sit) and I can *still* feel it the following morning when sitting. It makes it hard to keep the attention in on the breath. More than usual that is. Like Tony James said it creates unpleasant sensations in the solar plexus area, and generates the fight or flight response. Not a good combination for progress.

[dcurtisMember]

Thanks. I think you may have misunderstood me though. I’m not giving up on the TMI method or practice. I’m only trying to simplify. Bhante G’s book was recommended as a way of doing that. It’s interesting how much Mindfulness in Plain English has in common with TMI. No surprise really.

I’ll remain a member of this community and will continue to participate here.

[dcurtisMember]

Alex K,

Thanks for that. Your timing is coincidental, as I’ve already softened my position about following things to the letter. First through Blake Barton’s instruction (see above) then I set TMI aside and decided to try Bhante Gunaratana’s approach as outlined in “Mindfulness in Plain English”

Something about how Bhante G writes makes a kind of intuitive sense to this mind.

[dcurtisMember]

Alex,

Thanks for the help and input. I was unfamiliar with that sutta. That was very helpful to see that these issues have always been with us.

Best to you,

Darrell

[dcurtisMember]

Blake,

Okay, I’ll just keep to your instructions and post a follow up when I’ve become able to mostly overcome mind wandering, and gain a clear awareness of where my attention is moving moment to moment.

I’ve had some profound results from walking meditation in the past, so I’ll integrate that back into my practice.

Yes, the energy sensations make it extremely difficult to keep attention on the meditation object, although it often remains in awareness in the background. It might be due to excess tension, although I almost always start off each sitting fairly relaxed and calm. But that doesn’t mean it isn’t below the threshold of awareness until after I’ve been sitting for a half hour or so.

I can’t thank you enough for all your help.

Gratefully,

Darrell

[dcurtisMember]

Upali,

I wish I could say about the sensations. It’s currently a mystery to me. At first I attributed it to caffeine, or supplements taken, due to the irritated quality this sensation has. But when those are eliminated as a cause, the sensation remains. What’s interesting is that it seems to happen approximately at the same time in every session. It always seems to appear somewhere around the 1/2 to 3/4 mark of an hour sitting.

All that to say, I don’t know. It hasn’t always been there. It has developed sometime during the last year or so. Or perhaps I wasn’t aware of it before.

I figure the best I can do is investigate it carefully.

[dcurtisMember]

Blake,

Thanks for your help. What you say jives with my hunch, based on what Culadasa has stated in TMI.

I’ll be putting your suggestions into use, and will report back at some point.

Meanwhile, how do you suggest I know when it’s time to begin moving forward in the practice, and what do you suggest the next moves would be when that time arrives?

Thank you for your help,

Darrell

[dcurtisMember]

Hi Alex,

Hello dcurtis,

I’ll respond in the same fashion –

>>>I quickly scanned your post from last year. In relation to what Blake wrote, do you still agree with your assessment that you are sure this is mind wandering? It took me some long face to face discussion with a teacher to realize that I did not forget the breath, but that I was actually having gross distractions and the breath was still in awareness. Which is especially tricky in the beginning because my understanding of attention of awareness was (and is) still developing. One thing that helped me was a sort of delayed checking in: when I woke up from mind wandering, I first congratulated myself and appreciated the aha moment – and it can’t be stressed enough how important it is to do that. Then I asked myself, was I aware of the breath, was there any kind of breath sensation that I noticed. If not, fine. I would move on: how is awareness, can I allow it to open it up a bit more? Sometimes I started again with step 1 or 2 of the 4 step transition and set my intention again.

There are times when it isn’t mind wandering, as the breath isn’t lost. But yes, there are times where the breath is long gone, nowhere to be found. I have been doing what you described, although it never occurred to me that it was akin to a check-in. But yes, when waking to scattered attention or mind wandering, I learned to to notice if the breath was completely forgotten or not. Sometime sit is, although it is more frequently scattered attention. But it’s worth applying your method and seeing if perhaps the breath is not entirely forgotten after all.

>>>As long as the breath stays in the background then that sounds like stage 4. With your attention jumping quickly from one gross distraction to the next. But breath in the background is not forgetting the breath completely. Stage 4 is often not recognized, see my previous comment.

Several people have said as much to me, that I was in stage four. But (and this may be some of what Upali was getting at) There are still criteria for stage two and three I have yet to meet, per Culadasa’s descriptions in the book. So How could I be at stage four, when I’m still not able to master stages two and three?

>>>Sorry I do not have to say much about this. It sounds like the monkey mind is calming down?

More like monkey mind having returned after going to take some amphetamine. I understand your not being able to comment on it. It may just be something I have to investigate more deeply.

>>>Also I am not sure. I mean you could check in every two breaths, but that is not the idea I guess. My understanding is you should first try to be able to have a couple more breaths without forgetting…

I concur.

Your comments are very helpful. Thank you for responding.

[dcurtisMember]

Thanks for the reply.

I’ve tried to be very specific about the use of attention vs awareness, per the descriptions in TMI. That being the case, I don’t doubt I could still be mistaken/confused. Would you mind clarifying what you’re referring to specifically?

I’d love to work 1:1 with a teacher, but really don’t have extra funds to spare currently. I had been working with an ex-monastic for a couple of years, but it was of little to no use when it came to meditation and especially the TMI method/techniques.

I’d also appreciate it if you could elaborate as to what confusion you see me having with regards to the stages.

These questions are meant with an open mind, not to be challenging. I’d really like to know what you see.

I’ll go through the list of teachers. Perhaps there’s some way to get help without creating financial strain.

Thank you.

[dcurtisMember]

Sadly I’m still in the same place more or less. I’ve wanted to post again to get further advice/suggestions/help/input, but I have difficulty even knowing what to say or how to describe what I experience during meditation.

What you said about checking in – Exactly. In TMI is suggests checking in about every twelve in/out breaths. I can’t keep my attention (yes, attention, not awareness) on the breath for that long. I’m lucky to keep it there for two or three!

[dcurtisMember]

I’ve read the article you linked to, and have been making efforts to practice this way. Simply put, everything in my life becomes a part of the practice. It’s not just fewer meals, etc. That’s only one element. I already eat very little, and have a simple diet, so it requires little time. I still exercise, I just use that time to train the mind to keep the attention on the present moment.

Having read and re-read that article, the attention to portion about meals to the exclusion of the rest is missing the big picture.

I have no way of knowing if you’ve thought of any of this already, so you’ll have to pardon me if I have failed to satisfy your requests. These are the joys of discussion forums.

[Author]

Posts