[DavidMember]

Wiley Fox,
Blake hasn’t responded as of yet, and I thought I’d give my thoughts, although your message was addressed to Blake. I hope that is fine by you.

I agree with some of what you wrote, although I wouldn’t have worded it in the same manner, especially stating that these “meditation methods and are completely irrelevant and useless to the Shamatha meditator”. There is almost always something to be learnt.

As an example, if one looks at the first part of Faith in Mind, which I focused on, the instructions are quite concrete and accessible for most meditators. If one looks for what is beneficial and can with good-will assist a practitioner in early to mid-stage TMI, this was the place to direct their attention. At least that was my feeling. You may disagree and feel to even study this sutra is irrelevant and useless to a shamatha meditator. My view is the sutra is posted, so let’s work with it as skillfully as we can.

I agree that Cultivating the Empty Field is very much pointing rather than telling, which is why I used the word “instruction” for the part of Faith in Mind I referenced but wouldn’t use that for let’s say, the beautiful “The Cloud’s Fascination and the Moon’s Cherishing” from the Empty Field.

I differ from your view in that I think both these approaches can assist each other. Last week I used the TMI model of the conscious and unconscious minds to set a mood and give instructions for non-meditators prior to reading “The Cloud’s Fascination and the Moon’s Cherishing”. I felt that these minds, unburdened by technique and concepts, might be more open to letting the unconscious subminds open, to use TMI terminology. There followed by a short talk and reading it once again. A deeply practiced meditator attended the talk as my guest. Did the audience “understand” what was being read? I doubt it. But did many of them get a small moment of being pointed towards…? I do think so, and so did my guest. I doubt any of them raced out and registered in a mediation course. Maybe a few years from now, or in a next life, that talk will add onto everything else and spark them into practice. One just never knows. Which why in my view, it never hurts to try.

My best wishes.

David S.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 1 month ago by  David.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 1 month ago by  David.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 1 month ago by  David.

[DavidMember]

@Peter W
I’m glad you like the terms skillful/unskillful as suggest by Salina. I also use those when talking with groups and was also going to suggest them. Hopefully you may see your understandable reaction to wholesome / unwholesome decline over time.

Regarding Faith in Mind and TMI. This is an interesting and potentially tricky topic, which is why I’m glad you replied. Thank you.

Looking at the beginning we can see where misunderstanding might occur:
“The Great Way is not difficult; just avoid picking and choosing!
Only when you neither love nor hate does it clearly reveal itself.”

On the surface this seems to contradict some of TMI, especially the early stages. For example, we are encouraged to gain skill with certain techniques to minimize mind wandering. It may seem we are encouraged to pick a calm mind over a wandering mind. We may notice this tendency in our meditation when we feel successful when a calm mind appears and unsuccessful with our mind wanders.

This isn’t really correct. If we step back from pick and choosing, loving and hating, we see that a calm mind may be a more skillful mind but it isn’t a superior mind. In the early TMI stages, I see Faith in Mind reminding us to be skillful – to build skill without desire for a particular outcome (to avoid picking and choosing / to neither love nor hate). As TMI teaches, we cannot not directly control unconscious subminds and conscious brute force doesn’t work. However, we can hold intention to skillfully practice. At least this is how I see it. For me, the 3rd Patriarch reminds us to practice without picking or choosing an outcome – to just practice, but to practice skillfully. As we cultivate our meditation practice more thoroughly the instruction of the 3rd Patriarch becomes more direct. This is truly a beautiful, poetic instruction.

David S (DT Teacher in Training)

• This reply was modified 7 years, 1 month ago by  David.

[DavidMember]

Peter W,
Stepping aside from the back and forth above, I have wondered how you see this relative to the stages in TMI or the TMI approach in general. “Faith in Mind” is a favourite of mine, and I have used it in teaching. It offers clear advice for practitioners, especially from the beginning “The Great Way is not difficult; just avoid picking and choosing!” through to “Conflicts between longing and loathing are a disease of the mind.” This small section contains tremendous meaning. I also recommend the translation by Chan Master Shen Yen.

I have wondered why it resonated with you as a TMI practitioner. There’s no one answer, and I was interested if you were interested in sharing yours. If you just wished to post and leave it at that, no problem. Thank you for sharing.

David S. (DT Teacher in Training)

[DavidMember]

Thank you for reaching out again and please don’t worry about asking too many questions. Your queries are thoughtful and detailed. I have also done a fair bit of Neuroptimal and have experienced some flows of euphoria. From discussions with the consulting psychologist that monitors the sessions, strong energy flows are not the norm, and I wouldn’t advise others reading this thread to jump into Neuroptimal with the intent of experiencing energy flows or any other entertaining mental states.

Let me state my own thoughts on what are termed purifications, energy flows etc. I think there is a real dividing line between purifications and energy flows that signal that our nervous-physical energy system is tending toward an out of balance state. The problem is that it is not always obvious until later that we’ve transitioned from one state to the other. In my own case, I have also had periods of strong kundalini movements and a recent period of dis-ease that I can only describe as what felt like falling into an emotional hole – which was accompanied by a strong spike in anxiety.

If I am interpreting your earlier postings correctly, you really chased TMI / Neuroptimal and other practices. Also, a previous sense of ease and success has been replaced with a sense of dis-ease and concern. You now are backing off with the hope of removing the dis-ease and finding balance.

My advice for your consideration is to not chase getting back to “normal” with the same intensity it appears you invested in the initial TMI / Neuroptimal practice. Be kind to yourself – you’ve done a lot. Give yourself a pat on the back and maybe consider you may have done a bit too much too quickly. That’s just how life goes sometimes. Consider not doing any Neuroptimal until you feel quite ready = maybe walking away for an extended period. It obviously produces a strong reaction in you. I would keep your practice gentle, as you are doing, or even back off some more. Importantly, I would look at positive psychology practices such as culitavting gratitude in addition to loving kindess. I recommend being around loved ones and good friends. Talk to the loved ones about your feelings, don’t bottle them up. I found culitvating gratitude, loving kindness, skillfully stepping back, talking to loved ones and reaching out to others whose advice I trusted all helped. I hope this is useful for you. Good luck and remember – questions are good!

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