[Alex KMember]

OK thanks that makes sense in the context of the TMI system as so called dry insight practice would preclude the development of the 8th path factor into the four jhanas.

Its not the immediate conclusion I drew from the lack of so called ‘dark night’ descriptions though. It seemed strange that the Buddha did not highlight a possible danger for one cultivating the eightfold path in an incomplete or unbalanced way. I assumed this was because the the TMI system puts the experience of no self as a true reality which is the prime cause for the dark night experience.

This is counter to what one finds in the suttas though as the Buddha explicitly refused to answer any questions about whether there was a self or no self.

The main use of the anatta teaching in the suttas is to overcome the conceit of ‘I am this’ and ‘this is mine’ especially in regard to the aggregates. But its never posited as the goal of practice to realise no self. For one who has gone beyond all clingings then question of self or no self does not apply. It strikes me that for one who experiences the ‘dark night’ is using the anatta teaching in the wrong way. They are making assumptions where none should be made. Arahants do not assume a self or no self.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by  Alex K.

[Alex KMember]

The problem is the teaching on kamma and rebirth is so fundamental to the teaching’s of the Buddha its impossible to either remove it or reformulate it, so that doesn’t offend modern sensibilities, without completely distorting and /or reducing the Dhamma to an ancient treatment for modern neurosis.

For a in-depth and rigorous discussion on why rebirth matters in the Dhamma:

https://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writings/Rebirth_v111219.pdf

Excerpts from ‘The Truth of Rebirth’ by Thanissaro Bhikkhu

Writers who reject the idea that the Buddha is talking about the rebirth of a person in these two noble truths tend to argue in one of two ways: Either that the references to birth don’t imply rebirth; or that they refer to rebirth on the micro level of momentary mind-states, and not on the macro level of beings or persons over time. Neither interpretation, however, does full justice to what the Buddha had to say.

Writers in the first group have made much of the fact that the Buddha used the word “birth” rather than “rebirth” in the first noble truth, concluding that rebirth is not necessarily meant here. This conclusion, though, ignores the relationship of the first truth to the others. All the forms of suffering listed in the first truth are caused by the second truth, and brought to an end by the fourth. If birth were a one-shot affair, there would be—for a person already born—no point in looking for the causes of the suffering of birth, and no way that the
fourth truth could put an end to them.

This point is especially clear when we look at the Buddha’s own account of how he explored the causes of suffering after having seen, in his first two knowledges, the sufferings caused by repeated birth. He looked into the possible causes of birth and traced them deep into the mind:

“Monks, before my awakening, when I was still just an unawakened bodhisatta, the realization came to me: ‘How this world has fallen on
difficulty! It is born, it ages, it dies, it falls away & rearises, but it does not discern the escape from this stress, from this aging & death. O when will it discern the escape from this stress, from this aging & death?’

“Then the thought occurred to me, ‘Aging & death exist when what exists? From what as a requisite condition come aging & death?’ From my
appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: ‘Aging & death exist when birth exists. From birth as a requisite condition comes aging & death.’

Then the thought occurred to me, ‘Birth exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition comes birth?’ From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: ‘Birth exists when becoming exists. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth….

“Becoming exists when what exists?…
“Clinging/sustenance exists when what exists?…
“Craving exists when what exists?…
“Feeling exists when what exists?…
“Contact exists when what exists?…
“The six sense media exist when what exists?…

‘Name-&-form exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition is there name-&-form?’ From my appropriate attention there
came the breakthrough of discernment: ‘Name-&-form exists when consciousness exists. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes
name-&-form.’ Then the thought occurred to me, ‘Consciousness exists when what exists? From what as a requisite condition comes
consciousness?’ From my appropriate attention there came the breakthrough of discernment: ‘Consciousness exists when name-&-form
exists. From name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness.’

“Then the thought occurred to me, ‘This consciousness turns back at name-&-form, and goes no farther. It is to this extent that there is birth, aging, death, falling away, & reappearing, i.e., from name-&-form as a requisite condition comes consciousness, from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media…. Thus is the origination of this entire mass of stress. Origination, origination.’ Vision arose, clear knowing arose, discernment arose, knowledge arose, illumination arose within me with regard to things never heard before.” — SN 12:65

Had the Buddha assumed that birth were a one-time affair, he wouldn’t have explored its causes through becoming, clinging, and on down to name-&-form. He would have stopped his analysis of the causes of suffering at the realization: ‘Aging & death exist when birth exists. From birth as a requisite condition comes aging & death.’ He thus would have limited his analysis of the origination of suffering to what happens after birth. Only because he saw that birth was a repeated process did he probe into the causes of birth and trace them through the factors that he later taught in his description of dependent co-arising.

In other words, if the Buddha hadn’t assumed rebirth, he never would have discovered or taught the central tenets of his teaching: the four noble truths and dependent co-arising. His analysis of suffering and its causes would have been much more limited in scope.

The fact that the Buddha gained release by discovering a process that held constant across many levels of scale was reflected in the way he taught, often switching scales in the course of his discussions and refusing to be pinned down to one scale or another. Sometimes he talked about “beings” in the standard sense of the word, and sometimes as attachments (SN 23:2), i.e., as processes on the mental level. And in particular with dependent co-arising: The teaching is always presented as a process without a fixed reference to where—on the level of scale in the world or in the individual—the factors of the process are playing out.

In the same way, it’s a mistake to limit the Buddha’s teachings on birth/rebirth to just one level of scale. To limit them just to the micro level is to underestimate the potential for mental events in the present to create long-term suffering, and the radical nature of the cure needed to put an end to that suffering. To limit his teachings just to the macro level makes it impossible to observe directly in the present how birth and its attendant sufferings come about and can be brought to an end. To get the most out of these teachings, it’s best to drop any insistence, in line with one’s metaphysical assumptions, that they apply to one level and not another. Instead, it’s better to look at the processes as processes—true across many scales—and use this way of framing the issue as part of the strategy to put an end to suffering.

[Alex KMember]

Appropriate attention (yoniso mansikara) is the ability to frame your understanding of experience in the right terms. Views about whether there is a self or if there is no-self fall under category of inappropriate attention because they do not lead to the ending of the fetter of views. Appropriate attention is seeing and practicing in terms of the Four Noble Truths: This is dukkha. This is the origination of dukkha. This is the cessation of dukkha. This is the way leading to the cessation of dukkha. The goal of the path is not the realisation that there is no-self. The goal is the ending of dukkha.

“There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person…does not discern what ideas are fit for attention, or what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas fit for attention, and attends [instead] to ideas unfit for attention. And what are the ideas unfit for attention that he attends to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen effluent of sensuality arises, and the arisen effluent of sensuality increases; the unarisen effluent of becoming… the unarisen effluent of ignorance arises, and the arisen effluent of ignorance increases…. This is how he attends inappropriately: ‘Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? 25 Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?’ Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: ‘Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?’
“As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self… or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self… or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self… or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine—the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions—is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will endure as long as eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from stress.

“The well-instructed noble disciple… discerns what ideas are fit for attention, and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention, and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention…. And what are the ideas fit for attention that he attends to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen effluent of sensuality does not arise, and the arisen effluent of sensuality is abandoned; the unarisen effluent of becoming… the unarisen effluent of ignorance does not arise, and the arisen effluent of ignorance is abandoned…. He attends appropriately, This is stress… This is the origination of stress… This is the cessation of stress… This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at habits & practices. These are called the effluents that are to be abandoned by seeing.”
MN 2

Attending to the perception of not-self (rather no-self) with regards to the five clinging-aggregates is appropriate attention that can lead to stream-entry.

“Ven. Sariputta: “A virtuous monk, Kotthita my friend, should attend in an appropriate way to the five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. Which five? The form clinging-aggregate, the feeling… perception… fabrications… consciousness clinging-aggregate. A virtuous monk should attend in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant, stressful, a disease, a cancer, an arrow, painful, an affliction, alien, a dissolution, an emptiness, not-self. For it is possible that a virtuous monk, attending in an appropriate way to these five clinging-aggregates as inconstant… not-self, would realize the fruit of stream-entry.” SN 22:122

Any contradictions between the development of compassion and the view that there is no-self is not an issue when one doesn’t frame experience or ideas about ultimate reality in that way. Compassion is a natural result of following the Eightfold Noble Path.

“There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones reflects thus: ‘I love life and don’t love death. I love happiness and abhor pain. Now if I—loving life and not loving death, loving happiness and abhorring pain—were to be killed, that would be displeasing & disagreeable to me. And if I were to kill another who loves life and doesn’t love death, who loves happiness and abhors pain, that would be displeasing & disagreeable to the other. What is displeasing & disagreeable to me is displeasing & disagreeable to others. How can I inflict on others what is displeasing & disagreeable to me?’ Reflecting in this way, he refrains from taking life, gets others to refrain from taking life, and speaks in praise of refraining from taking life. In this way his bodily behaviour is pure in three ways.” SN 55:7

Right resolve (a factor of the Path) is defined as the resolve for renouncing sensuality, the resolve for non-ill will, and the resolve for non-cruelty. The resolve to act on goodwill is equivalent to the second of these 5 resolves; the resolve to act on compassion, to the third. As part of right resolve, goodwill and compassion provide the motivation to act on the insights of right view—which is the first factor—into the nature of action and its power to bring about the end of suffering. In other words, goodwill and compassion take these insights and resolve to use them to direct your thoughts, words, and deeds to bring about the end of suffering and to attain true happiness.

A useful guide on how compassion (and the other Brahmaviharas) work in the Eightfold Path is discussed in ‘The Sublime Attitudes’ by Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
https://www.dhammatalks.org/Archive/Writings/TheSublimeAttitudes_150724.pdf

• This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by  Alex K.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by  Alex K.

[Alex KMember]

When you see with discernment,
‘All fabrications are inconstant’ —
you grow disenchanted with stress.
This is the path
to purity.

When you see with discernment,
‘All fabrications are stressful’ —
you grow disenchanted with stress.
This is the path
to purity.

When you see with discernment,
‘All phenomena are not-self’ —
you grow disenchanted with stress.
This is the path
to purity.

Sabbe saṅkhārā aniccā’ti yadā paññāya passati
Atha nibbindati dukkhe esa maggo visuddhiyā.

Sabbe saṅkhārā dukkhā’ti yadā paññāya passati
Atha nibbindati dukkhe esa maggo visuddhiyā.

Sabbe dhammā anattā’ti yadā paññāya passati
Atha nibbindati dukkhe esa maggo visuddhiyā.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by  Alex K.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by  Alex K.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by  Alex K.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by  Alex K.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by  Alex K.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by  Alex K.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by  Alex K.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by  Alex K.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by  Alex K.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by  Alex K.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by  Alex K.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by  Alex K.
• This reply was modified 6 years, 9 months ago by  Alex K.

[Alex KMember]

Thank you Maria.

[Alex KMember]

Thank you Andre. Very good points to consider. The activity of labelling/conceiving then becomes part of metacognitive introspective awareness.

[Alex KMember]

Thanks for your input Philip. For myself I don’t think I am particularly in touch with the tactile sensory experience of being in the body beyond conditioned concepts. So this is new territory Im exploring.

[Alex KMember]

Agree with you 5 points JC.

Another thing which Ive noticed is that I seem have better intuitive understanding how ‘minds’ work in general.

This has been helpful in training our dog as well as my mind 😉

[Alex KMember]

Hi Blake,

Thanks for the links, they are very helpful.

Kind regards,
Alex

[Alex KMember]

Dear Eli,

I also recently started the TMI method and have experienced some of the issues you talk about. There are others here who I hope will be able to help you work through them.

Wishing you well in your life and practice.

Best regards,
Alex

[Alex KMember]

OK. Best wishes in your practice.

[Alex KMember]

Hi Darrell,

I was listening to a retreat audio between Culadasa and a student about being stuck and I found it very helpful as it made me realise that its more important to focus on the development of qualities like, peripheral awareness, stable attention, introspective awareness etc rather than following a particular method to the letter. People vary in there ability to discern details in breath sensations but it doesn’t stop one from developing say introspective awareness enough to move on to practices in a higher stage. The other thing that struck me is how important it is to be inquisitive and just try things out to see what happens.

The audio file is here:

http://s3.amazonaws.com/dharmatreasure/151231-winter-retreat-d-culadasa.mp3

and the discussion starts at about 28:30.

All the best,
Alex

[Alex KMember]

I think this would be helpful/useful for many.

I have only listened to a a few of Culadasa’s talks so will be slowly working my way through the archive and happy to help if assistance wanted.

• This reply was modified 6 years, 11 months ago by  Alex K.

[Alex KMember]

Hi Bobby,

Certainly manasikara seems to literally mean ‘attention’. The full phrase however is yoniso manasikāra – yoniso being translated as ‘appropriate’ in this case.

As you say the balancing of awareness and attention is what we understand in the TMI system as mindfulness (sati). However the way the Buddha defines appropriate attention (see the sutta quoted above) says that appropriate attention is the food for the development of mindfuless and alertness (metacognitive introspective awareness) not the other way round.

It seems to me that yoniso manasikāra is somehow more fundamental than the development of sati sampajañña as it is the result of having conviction in the training/teacher/Dhamma.

It would great if you could ask Culadasa about this.

Kind regards,
Alex

[Alex KMember]

Hi Chloe,

I wasn’t pointing to a conflict or an absence. Culadasa redefined mindfulness and clear comprehension (sati and sampajañña) very effectively so they can be understood and used very effectively in practice. I was curious if yoniso manasikāra (appropriate attention) is part of the TMI system as it is a recurrent theme in the suttas.

Kind regards,
Alex

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