[moln1Member]

Hi, Wiley, Ivan and Patrick!
I was hit by a virus knocking me out for a while after writing, so I haven’t thanked you for sharing your great insights.

It’s hard balancing the effort so that it is still wise 🙂
I mean, habitually I want to start a military bootcamp regimen of less sleep and hard tough meditation 🙂
But I do realize it is not really the way to go. I am actually trying to relax the tension around the practice, and accept that I am still in this hazy, fuzzy, dreamy part of stage 4, and just observe the aversion to it and craving for “stage progression” I experience.

So… Balancing sleep with my other life is the intention, and relaxing the tensions.

Once again, thanks!

[moln1Member]

Hi Rob,
I understand there are most likely individual differences, but wow, does ‘When I entered stage four a lot of mental activity and dull dream-like states arose. It felt like I was in a meditative state “less advanced” than when I was back in stage two. I went into a spiral of judging and doubt over the practice.’ sound exactly right!

Not sleepy, but dream-like, and yes, it feels like the practice has slipped back to even before beginning to meditate.

Very inspiring to read about your experiences. Thank you so much for writing!

• This reply was modified 8 years, 10 months ago by  moln1.

[moln1Member]

I am blown away by allt he kind and informative answers!

Upasaka Culadasa, thank you so much for your very clarifying text. I do hope so that all on this forum that are experiencing frustration or having difficulties with this read your answer.

Blake, I understand that fully, and the thing is I did master stage three according to TIM.then something happened, and my mind is totally unruly and just zones out during practice. I do believe it is some kind of dullness manifesting this way. And you’re right. Meditation has become a chore and not very fun since this. And I do believe it may be skillful to just lighten up about it all for a while and find my way back to joy. I hope I can still master stage four one day 🙂

Nelson, very interesting film! Dense on info, so I have to look at it again!

Thank you to all of you and may all beings be free of suffering!

[moln1Member]

Hi Blake!
Thank you for the information about awareness (introspective or such)vs attention. It really means I can lighten up about that! It seems very useful to me!

I mentioned in an earlier post that I have been following my breath quite well, but that I can’t recall afterwards if a breath was long or short. I experimented with identifying different sensations of in- and out-breath, and to know how many I perceived. I know that I perceive them, but Unless I decide beforehand to count them, I can’t say how many I perceived. Basically, it was the same now that I tried asking myself afterwards if I was aware of something else during attending to the breath It is hard unless I look for it at the same time as I am following my breath. Don’t know if this makes sense. Anyways, I tensed up as I tried that one, so I let it go.

Regarding positive effects of meditation it’s funny. My wife has asked me why I spend so much time with it if it doesn’t do much for me. I myself think that there are subtle changes in fretting about the small stuff, but there is some reason I keep doing it and have been doing it so persistently. Don’t know that reason though.

I believe I think about quitting because I get disappointed due to the fact that I perceive a lack of improving my attention (and awareness) and have spent so much time. Yes, so I do not enjoy it at the moment.

I am trying to revert to stage 2 practice to regain some footing, but it seems like I am not even there right now. Stage I is still fine though.

Thank you again and all the best!

[moln1Member]

Hi Blake and Jon,
I am so grateful for your replies. You are really patient and compassionate.
Blake, when you noticed your mind was alternating, that is not necessarely a gross distraction, right?

Jon, I think you pinpointed some of my traits quite well! It takes one to know one? 🙂
It’s like I need to be told where it is ok to step out of “the rules” that are explicitly stated…

I have a hard time believing I wouldn’t return if I quit now, since meditation has been with me for almost 30 years now, but really diligent and persistent daily practice for 10-12 years. But the tug to take a long sabbatical is strong, and I know practice needs to be continuous.
I’ll reread the text on doubt, as right now it feels like the practice works for “you out there”, but not for me (which is funny considering there is no me and you).

Again, I am so thankful for your time and efforts.
All the best.

[moln1Member]

Interesting observation!
In my case, I guess that continuing to practice diligently will reveal more, since I am so confused by the way I interpret the descriptions at the moment.

I have been very diligent for years now, and am somewhat at a point where the tug to “roll up the mat and leave” is strong (to use yoga-speak). I.e. stop practicing.
Of course this means there is something to observe and learn here.
It would’ve been easier if I found my way back to enjoying the investigation more.

Thanks for your input!

[moln1Member]

Hi maryhill!
Yes, I totally agree with you regarding the connections between science and buddhism.
Sounds like good practice.
Thank you so much!

[moln1Member]

Thanks Kurt!
That is great advice.
It seems to me as a balance between not over-analyzing and trying to assess signs of stages.

In a sense I was more relaxed when I didn’t know about any stages, but then again, I believe the fact that I actually could progress towards nibbana in this lifetime was not as clear to me at that time.

[moln1Member]

Hi Matthew,
Interesting!
Initially I thought I had to wait for a certain sense of overwhelming emotion to view it as something connected to purification. BUT I have tried something a couple of times the last couple of times doing formal meditation. It seems to me that the dullness or fuzziness I experience is connected to pressure in my forehead and around the eyes, like the kinesthetic manifestation of fatigue.
In the beginning I tried ignoring it. But then I started thinking that why shouldn’t I investigate this?
When I have tried to, every time it seems as the pressure begins lifting after a while, and I get in touch with a sadness. So I’ve tried just opening up to it. But maybe I am still preventing myself from letting this sadness loose fully.

So this resonates pretty much with what you wrote. But I guess I won’t know until I continue investigating!

Thank you also for fantastic input on how to practice with the question.

[moln1Member]

Hi Kurt!
I believe you’re right about the dullness!
Regarding the memory bit, I guess it’s more like I am attentive of the sensations of the breath and miss out on the whole concept of “a breath”. More like you speak about the focus. If I don’t intend to know the length of the breath, I know every sensation. But I am not sure that I, should you interrupt me, could answer a question of “ok, what was the last sensation you noticed?”. Maybe, but I would have to try hard to remember it even though I was there, knowing it in the moment.
Don’t know if that makes sense…

Thank you for the Koan! I will continue investigating the “I” 🙂

[moln1Member]

Hi again,
An additional question. When I do formal meditation I tend to follow the sensations of the breath “in real-time”, i.e. I follow them and notice lots of changes as they occur, but there is very little cognitive processing. For instance, almost nothing seems to be committed to memory. If I ask of myself if that last breath was long or short, I haven’t got much of an idea. But if I intend to “follow” the breath, I know. But then for instance I don’t know the length of the pauses. I have to intend to investigate the length of the pauses to know that.

So most of my meditation sessions, at least when I didn’t have the troubles I described earlier (where my mind seems to zone out), attention has been on the breath closely, but I could not tell you what was going on.

Does this sound like meditation according to the instructions?
Thanks again!

May all beings be free from suffering soon!

[moln1Member]

Hi, Matthew and thanks for offering to help!

Regarding “always” – using absolutes to quantify frequencies of actions is always tricky 🙂 What I mean is that although I have changed meditation technique a couple of times throughout my life, I have been fairly consistent in sticking to that technique for those dedicated years. Now my intention till recently was to follow the book and not mix any other stuff in (practicewise, that is).

The current difficulties are related to my meditation. I actually had a very stressful 1.5 years before mastering stage three, and have had a much less stressful time almost coinciding with beginning stage four practice. Which sort of surprised me as I thought that the other events in my life and stress would have made things difficult.
Anyhow, in stage four, I have had this fuzziness, which I realize now must be strong dullness (at first I didn’t think it was reminiscent of anything leading to falling asleep, so I was unsure). And I try the antidotes, and even standing up, my mind just wanders off into some kind of dullness. I got the advice to perhaps try more physical forms, such as walking and perhaps adding some yoga. I think this is very sound advice, and am experimenting with it now. I believe, that walking meditation is very powerful, and hope that apart from perhaps insights, I can translate the practice into advancement along the 10 stage model.

Regarding future problems, I never wanted to mix in any such exercises as for instance “trying to find the I who is perceiving”, or “asking myself WHO this I really is” out of fear that this could lead to some kind of intellectualizing posing as insight. I believe Mara is quite gifted at stopping us from gaining wisdom :).

With much appreciation and the hope that this might be helpful to someone else as well.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 11 months ago by  moln1.

[moln1Member]

Blake and Nelson,
Thanks for your very compassionate and also patient responses.
I would say that of course there is an expectaion and judgments of how practice should develop implicit in the disappointment I am experiencing.
I have been into meditation so long (practicing and reading about) that there is an intellectual understanding of relaxing my expectations, and acceptance. But my ending up writing this is proof that there is more work to be done (or actually NOT done/undone?).
Several years ago meditating without any knowledge of descriptions of stages, I would sit daily for at least 45 minutes and not try to assess my current practice in terms if stages, and I was fine. But probably not progressing because there was no specific guidance of how to deal with each step.
Now I know some stage models, and, voila! Here comes the doubt in my practice 🙂

It’s funny but I didn’t recognize my zoning out as gross dullness, as I wouldn’t have said I was close to sleeping.
But the last days I would say that my zoning out is probably just that. Thanks for pointing that out, Nelson!
I have tried some standing meditation, but I really zone out then as well, not to the point of collapsing or losing my balance, but…

So perhaps, as you suggest I try, Nelson, even more movement perhaps at this stage is necessary. I have a veeeery short path at home where I can take a couple of steps in each direction.

I have done long walking meditation periods in different paces at retreats before, and have also had a yoga practice some years ago, so I guess I have to disregard some of the stage-following perfectionism, and do some experimenting on my own for a while.

With metta.

[moln1Member]

Hi Nelson!
Thank you for your great suggestions on how to use skillful means to deal with this phase.
I have done a fair bit of open-eyes meditation before, and I seem to be quite apt at zoning out with my eyes open as well.

My resources of meditation options are quite restricted at the moment trying to raise a toddler and doing household chores, so I am quite impressed by my own ability to maintain a consistent 45-60 minute daily practice! But I can’t choose too freely when I sit.

Today I tried walking meditation for 30 minutes followed by 30 minutes sitting with open eyes.
At many times these last few weeks it seems as if I am back at square one really. My mind is doing its best to jump off at times. And there is quite tangible craving for entertainment. Today during walking, suddenly I found myself having entered some thoughts on using some technical gadgets I recently acquired.
But as I said spontaneous awareness soon jumps in. I reaffirm the intention to catch this earlier, but have still not found any improvement. It was quite fast to begin with, but isn’t improving much right now.

Also, I believe, which seems to be the case for many meditators on these boards (from reading some posts), I am a little confused about introspective awareness. It is quite clear to me how it WORKS, when it directs attention (quite easy to see), but how I perceive thoughts and emotions as being in the background, in the periphery, is still a mystery to me.

Anyho, I will attempt to do proportionately even more walking and standing meditation with open eyes and see if this is a skilful way. Right now this seems like such a huge obstacle to me.
I just hope I am actually progressing (I have meditated some years before this) and not just running around in circles.

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