[5adja5bMember]

Hi Ivan,

To clarify, when I first noticed cessation, the pattern was similar. It is because the experience in the last 3-4 weeks it has been so dominant that I was asking about the reality shifts. I currently am more relaxed about it all and kind of see it as my mind trying to show ‘me’ something. It also seems to have really slowed in the last two days (coincidentally at the same time I decided to try and remain in cessation for longer periods – it almost seemed to make the experience shy away. Having said that, there were some experiences that have evidence to say they were longer periods, but I am not sure at all).

I place myself at a stage where meditating on the mind is appropriate because I currently experience pervasive equanimity in my sits (outside of jhana), that in the last few days has lasted throughout my day. The equanimity is very similar to 4th jhana. Illumination has been present since last year, and inner sound has been present for a whle too.

This enduring peace may not last, however over the past few months I was experiencing aches, sweats, pains, disruptions, nausea etc that matched grade 3 piti description (with clear physical pliancy for perhaps months prior). This has now seemingly been replaced by the equanimity with the physical pliancy present but not dominant.

I am aware that there should be grade v piti before this point, and it is something I have questioned. but I often initially spend over an hour in jhana in my main sit of the day, and I wondered if the ‘peaking’ of grade v piti was happening in that period.

When I tested this theory over a period of six consecutive sits recently, by staying out of jhana when I first sat down, there was clear rising of pervasive pleasure, both physical and mental, that basically felt the same as 2nd jhana, but with the ability to move focus onto wherever I wanted. The consistency and similarity to 2nd jhana led me to conclude it was probably grade v piti.

As I say, my current consistent experience, once I emerge from jhana, is of pervasive equanimity. In the last few days this has stuck throughout my day, together with a different experience that I believe is related to insights (well, maybe the equinimity is insight-related rather than samatha-related too. Or a mix of both) and hard to describe briefly. In addition to peacefulness, there is spaciousness. When there is a breeze, it can be like the breeze is blowing through me. ‘Walls coming down’ has been on my mind? (But unsure the extent to whcih they have dissolved). Regardless, it currently is really nice.

I access jhana daily either through illumination, metta, pleasurable feeling, whole body breath, breath at the nose (not sure if that is the breath nimtta, I initially though it had to be but it doesn’t match Shaila Catherine’s description – it was more like a conceptual ‘mental image’ of the breath rather than an actual visual appearance – however it seemed to be jhana). I go up to 5th or 6th, maybe the 7th and 8th, but I often run out of time by then (although today I resolved to explore formless realms specifically and was able to access 5th jhana from access and go from there. Unsure if I accessed 7th and 8th as I am not entirely sure what they taste like. 6th is still a bit sketchy in that regard too. At times it felt as if pure cessation was accessable today through jhana (is that 9th jhana?) but again I need to explore further. Deciding where to prioritise my time can sometimes be an issue. I got a sense of how some might use jhanas as a path to enlightenment. ). I have not managed to fully withdraw from the senses in jhana yet.

From time to time/occasionally, I do get distractions, however I am currently often so relaxed about it all that it isn’t really a problem. I kind of figure that as the mind gets more powerful, finer distractions are noticed, rather than expecting complete perfection. It almost feels as if I am content to let them from time to time appear. And kind of learn from them. All the feelings and experiences mentioned above say to me I am practicing at the appropriate level.

I have not been on retreat. I have practiced with TMI since last July. Prior to that I meditated from, 5-30 minutes a day based on other books, since the beginning of 2016. Currently I sit for 3 hrs 15m to 4hrs 15m a day, across two daily sits. Often it is 2hrs15 – 2hrs45 in the morning, and 1hr30 in the evening. Re: teachers, I have talked with Nick Grabovac twice over the last couple of months, and he has been very helpful! I have also found the online forums helpful and supportive.

Anyway based partly on this(as there is more detail I could give), partly based on the fact it feels doable, I decided meditating on the mind is appropriate. I do feel pretty confident about that appropriateness. But I could be wrong. So I’d be interested to hear particularly if you have a different view. I find it a beautiful practice at the moment.

Hope this helps clarify, and thanks for your help so far 🙂

[5adja5bMember]

Thanks Ivan.

Do you have any opinion on the periods of reality distortion I am experiencing? I am not sure if they are something to which I need to apply an antidote – or whether they are something that I should let happen without challenge.

I have tried adjusting my posture to be more energetic (no lower back support) and that didn’t really have much affect. Someone helpfully suggested it might be because I am concentrating too hard at the expense of awareness, and while this does have the effect sometimes of adding some ‘lightness’ to my focus and more context to these reality-distortions, they still are present.

I have also tried opening my eyes in the middle of one of these periods to check whether I feel sleepy or drowsy and I don’t really. I have also tried rapidly counting to 10, then counting backwards, then counting in multiples of 2 etc, again to test the alertness of my mind, and I didn’t have any problems here (though this can mean the reality-distortion no longer is prominent, and it becomes softer and more in the background, or even fades away). So I feel pretty sharp. The question of dullness arises in my mind primarily because sometimes these periods involve a fraction-of-a-second where a dream-like flash of appears in consciousness, for instance a random person, or fantasy. This is rarely prolonged and is there-gone, but it could suggest the ‘half asleep-half awake’ state of hypnagogia.

As I said, these reality distortions also frequently result in what I believe are cessation experiences. Blinks on-off-on, followed by a wave of pleasure and temporary ‘sharpness’ of concentration with no reality-shifting. But this has been going on for about three weeks now, every day! And it’s not uncommon to have, say, 40% of my sit in this state, broken up into 5 minutes reality-shifting, 5 minutes sharpness, 5 mins reality-shifting, etc.

Maybe cessation requires an element of detaching from reality, however I am unsure what to think of the length of this period (three weeks). I have read that experiencing cessation over and over can prevent one from making progress on the next path (on the other hand, I have also been told that it doesn’t make a difference to one’s path progress!).

Recently I have been getting equanimity in my sits and this helps relax around them, just let it happen, but I do wonder whether I should be applying antidotes, if I am habituating my mind to some kind of dullness. On the other hand illumination can be powerful still even in these periods which implies strong focus, and as I say I have tested for dullness as described above. For the most part mindfulness also feels strong even in these reality distortions – I am not ‘lost’ in them, but rather observing sensory input shift and distort (apart from the blinks, and the fractions of dreamy images that can take over consciousness), with awareness and attention still, I believe, including the bits of reality that aren’t currently shifting (eg an ‘external’ noise, or the breath. etc)

Today while meditating on the mind I had a period when reality just became kind of neutral. There was a visual impression (applied afterwards?) of kind of vibrating greyness. It was followed by a gentle bliss wave. It felt different to what I believe are the cessation experiences, and I wonder if this was the mind’s resting state. It felt as if it lasted longer than my usual ‘blinks’, 1 or 2 seconds rather than a fraction of a second. I am just cautious, given the dreamy imagery, of misinterpreting imagination/dreams for direct experience of something else. (as I say this was not typical for dreamy imagery for me, which is shorter and brief ‘stabs’ of some obvious fantasy, but still).

Thanks!

• This reply was modified 8 years, 4 months ago by  5adja5b.

[5adja5bMember]

Thanks for this extremely comprehensive reply!

As for the cessations, yes I am as sure as I can be. I mean, I may be wrong, but they are clearly blinks on-off-on, followed by obvious rushes of bliss more often than not. Sometimes there are audible clicks and the experience of the ‘off’ varies (sometimes it’s like black static space, or grey slate, or nothing at all but the before-after; the imagery I put down to the mind’s interpretation after the event); but it matches up with most of what I’ve read on the topic. The flickery-shimmery quality before (often but not always with dreamy-quality which as I’ve said I’m trying to work on); then the blink, and the rush of pleasure plus much sharper consciousness afterwards. Even when dreaminess is present it’s clearly a blink, like someone turns the TV off and on again. Something winks out then comes back on again. And I’ve experienced them without the possible-dullness too, and the pattern remains the same.

I was introduced to observing ‘doors’ through which these are experienced too and I can sometimes notice the impermanence shimmery-flickery door just before.

I have had a few of these experiences even when meditating on the mind recently (and as that practice seems to directly counter dullness, these experiences were less dreamy and they felt like they took more ‘effort’ too as a result!).

The dullness, if that’s what it is (I’m not 100% convinced it’s not some other natural process tied to the mind inclining towards cessation), is far less present when meditating on the mind. And I am curious with that particular practice, so I will keep with it. I have had conflicting information about whether exploring fruitions is holding one back from path progress, or whether the next path happens alongside intentionally called-up fruitions. I sort of felt that given how profound cessation could be it made sense to try and experience that as much as possible. Maybe I’m less attached to that view now.

I’ve had some interesting experiences on Meditating on the Mind, such as this sadness – and then some sense of deep relaxation as something that feels self-related (temporarily) dissolves into light (illumination, which is linked to concentration for me, is strong in this practice) – and then experiences of luminous consciousness, just like a mirror, or a lake’s surface, beautiful – stuff to explore. And currently it’s a dullness-buster too…

Ultimately l just try to do what feels right…

Thanks again.

[5adja5bMember]

… the other thing I’ve noticed is that when doing this practice, it seems to currently make it ‘harder’ to experience the cessation events. I wonder if the two practices are working against each other in any way? (in TMI Culadasa writes the the mind in its resting state is not the same as a cessation event but the insights to be gained are the same)

Currently when I get the cessation/frutions, it is often accompanied by some form of dullness and dreaminess that I’ve been trying to work on. The meditating on the mind practice requires a lot of conscious power, so I wonder if for me, the being ‘very awake’ aspect of the meditating on the mind makes cessation currently less likely. In which case, should I prioritise experiencing as many cessation/fruitions as possible (which would be in another practice at the moment) or keep going with this one…? hmm.. !

[5adja5bMember]

Thanks… I would say my practice is around stage 9. I have clear illumination and inner sound and have done for some weeks now, if not months. Joy is harder to identify because I am drawn to this practice that has this sadness effect, but when I dip into the other practices it brings either pleasure or equanimity. The only odd thing for me has been that the bliss of mental pliancy has been hard to find. (bliss of physical pliancy has been present for about 2 months!); as I say, equanimity is arising (although I kind of feel the equanimity may be more insight than shamatha-based, not sure though).

Having said all that – I would say in ‘normal’ practice outside of meditating on the mind, I get a feeling kind of like 3rd Jhana. I just haven’t done that much ‘normal’ practice as I am drawn to meditating on the mind; so I do jhanas, then meditating on the mind!

If I am not stage 9 I would say I am latter stage 8, which means it’s still not inappropriate to do this stage 9 practice, I hope? I think there’s an argument to place me stage 10 too, as the equanimity is lingering. So somewhere in stages 8-10 I would place myself.

I would say that if I had to say which part of my practice had advanced furthest though, I would say it is insight. I’m not sure if they’re imbalanced or not but if I had to pick one that was furthest ahead it would be that.

Your idea of ‘longing’ or loneliness does kind of ring a bell. It’s like the bittersweetness of a sad song, rather than being sucked into the dark depths. A quiet kind of sadness, fragrant in the air…
As I said above, if I had to take an instinctive guess it would be to do with the sense of self, which had relocated into awareness, having nowhere to go to.

What do you mean by ‘natural state’ – do you mean what Culadasa calls the mind’s resting state? If so, I have yet to see that (beyond possible glimpses)… any tips? So far, I am noticing how things slide in and out of awareness, kind of like an ever-shifting puddle of consciousness.

Thanks again 🙂

[5adja5bMember]

Fair enough, I can accept that 🙂

Hadn’t heard of Alan Wallace, but he’s now on my radar! Thanks.

[5adja5bMember]

Actually to add further info (I was wary about going round in circles hence my brief reply above); beyond my own exploration and direct experience, I have looked into this through Culadasa’s teachings (I think it’s the teaching retreat on meditation and insight or the one on enlightenment where Culadasa talks about nama and rupa and leads a guided meditation on them); plus the reading list on dhamatreasure.org, among other resources. Rob Burbea’s book ‘Meditations on emptiness and dependent arising’ is good on this subject (approx halfway through that one).

Just to be clear, are you saying that nama and rupa are two specifically different things?

My understanding, intellectually and what I see and explore at my current level of meditation, is that everything we care to point to boils down to the mind-system interpreting sensation and modelling a reality based on that. It’s all input from an ultimately unknowable reality that is then modeled into the conventional world we see around and within us.

And then even beyond that, the idea that there’s a ‘mind’ that is specifically modelling reality is in itself an empty fabrication as part of a unified, interconnected process.

Consciousness (in its conventional sense of being ‘aware’ of something; I believe Culadasa refines it to being information exchange specifically at the highest level of the mind-system) is too a fabrication, so far as I can tell. I have not experienced consciousness without being conscious ‘of’ something. I actually do not see consciousness as a problem or something unknowable – the sense of ‘someone’ being ‘aware’ appears to be in itself a fabrication and it is my experience that this can be explored in meditation, on and off the cushion, too. The idea of being an awareness that is consciously wandering around and doing stuff (even once one no longer is seduced by an ego-self), while seductive, is one that can be challenged. Periods of no agency at all; and watching that no agency; and even that watching of no-agency has no agency (and is fabricated). Just one system all interacting and flowing into everything else.

With that assumption of ‘someone’ being ‘aware’ challenged, Culadasa’s description in TMI of consciousness applying to companies, countries, societies, galaxies, the universe makes sense to me.

Anyway I speak in the awareness that any insights can be deepened, reevaluated, reinterpreted or seen more clearly as practice develops.

• This reply was modified 8 years, 5 months ago by  5adja5b.
• This reply was modified 8 years, 5 months ago by  5adja5b.
• This reply was modified 8 years, 5 months ago by  5adja5b.
• This reply was modified 8 years, 5 months ago by  5adja5b.

[5adja5bMember]

I know there are some good resources out there 🙂

• This reply was modified 8 years, 5 months ago by  5adja5b.

[5adja5bMember]

Thanks Don. I guess I’m coming from the angle of everything subjectively experienced ultimately being fabrication – whether that fabrication is labelled nama or rupa or anything else. And in that sense even distinguishing nama from rupa, at a certain point of practice, may become arbitrary.

Anyway, thanks again for your reply, I have a clearer sense of where you are coming from now 🙂

• This reply was modified 8 years, 5 months ago by  5adja5b.

[5adja5bMember]

“In Advaita Vedanta (and even more integrally in some tantric views, in both Hinduism and Buddhism), nama-rupa, name and form, mind and matter, are thoroughly entwined, but neither can be reduced to the other.”

Curious if you could elaborate on this. In one of the audio talks Culadasa says at some point one realises that nama and rupa are the same thing (IIRC); it is also something I am noticing in my practice. Whether thought or ‘external’ sensation or emotion or whatever… it all seems to be the mind-system’s interpretation of sensation; into ‘chair’ or ‘thought’ or ’emotion’ or ‘sound’… (and even ‘mind-system’)

Of course my insights can deepen, but this is the current direction of things for me.

Thanks!

• This reply was modified 8 years, 5 months ago by  5adja5b.

[5adja5bMember]

Thanks Ivan, yes I posted there as the forum seemed a little more active. Sorry if this causes confusion – feel free to delete this thread if you want.

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