[Jacques PierretMember]

Hi U. Tucker,

Thanks for your advice. Things are moving on and taking care of themselves.

I’m writing this short note to mention that, indeed, the service (or technology) that is supposed to be sending us emails … Notify me of follow-up replies via email… is not functioning. I haven’t once received an email to my inbox since I have been sending messages.

Take care

[Jacques PierretMember]

Hi Patrick,
First of all, just to be clear, I am a beginner (not to meditation but to this book) myself. I simply figure that I have sufficiently understood and assimilated the difference between peripheral awareness and attention.
That being said, one thing that has helped me is to go over the book several times. This is definitely not a habit as I rarely – if ever – read a book twice. But there are so many details and content to assimilate in this book, that in this case I think the exception is well warranted. If you haven’t done this, maybe you can give it a try.

As for the last part of your comments, first of all, you might literally try out the experiment of walking down the busy city street in the flesh. If you try this, make sure you verify if you are only “subconsciously” aware of peripheral awareness while putting your attention on some other factor (like a moving car). What I was getting at is that some part of your mind(s) IS conscious of both operations…you just don’t know it. To fully understand what I mean, I suggest you read the Fifth Interlude: The Mind System. (No worries, you don’t need to be on Stage 5 to read this. It won’t hamper your progress to read the Interlude and then go back to Stage 3). This Interlude explains how different sub-minds are all operating successively without you necessarily being conscious of it…as are perceiving moments and non-perceiving moments. So part of the solution is to go out and experiment while holding the INTENTION to be conscious of both peripheral awareness and attention.

I have only written what has helped me while studying this book. Maybe it can be of assistance to you as well.

Take care,
Jacques

[Jacques PierretMember]

And to drag things out further… :o) I forgot to omit the context of this thread from the very beginning. It has a lot to do with this paragraph from Stage 3 of Culadasa’s book:

“The dullness and drowsiness we’re concerned with here are due specifically to meditation practice, and need to be clearly distinguished from dullness due to other causes. Obviously, if you’re fatigued by physical or mental stress, illness, or lack of sleep, you’ll be sleepy during meditation. So, regard a good night’s rest as an important part of your practice. When you meditate also makes a difference. Most people get drowsy after eating or strenuous physical activity, and the early part of the afternoon or late evening can be sleepy times as well. If you’re well rested and have taken all these other factors into account, but still find yourself getting drowsy, you’ll know it’s dullness related to meditation.”

So maybe you can take this into account in your reply. Among other things, what I wrote concerning optimal meditation periods (directly after waking up)…”When you meditate also makes a difference.”

[Jacques PierretMember]

Hi Upasaka Tucker,

Thanks for your answer. You certainly put PSD in a larger context, which is helpful. I think a big part of my problem is that dullness follows me around through much of my days. I have something akin to chronic fatigue syndrome. Have you heard of how to deal with this problem in dealing with other meditators?

But I may have found at least part of the answer today. I usually meditate two to three times a day for about an hour each time. But it dawned on me to meditate when I just get up in the morning, and right after lunch which I follow by a brief nap. In both these cases I was much more alert and far less susceptible to any form of PSD right after sleep. Just a little subtle dullness which I noticed right away. So I’ll keep experimenting with this.

I completely agree and understand to not move on to further stages while dullness is still a problem (which is mostly why I sent these questions). So in light of your last message, are my problems with dullness on the way to being solved if I mostly reserve sittings for after I wake up (from a night’s sleep or a nap)? Or should I keep chipping away and invite sittings when I know PSD will most surely show up?

Sorry for dragging this out and many thanks for your time,
Jacques

[Jacques PierretMember]

Hi again,
I was wondering if anyone could address my last question (above)?

My predicament lies in knowing if one can move on to a subsequent Stage -in this case, from Stage 4 to 5 – when uncontrollable factors like a lack of sleep is confusing matters. In other words, if I can notice only subtle dullness when I have had proper sleep, is it a good idea to move on even if progressive dullness remains a problem on days when I have gotten (the recurring problem) of a bad night’s sleep?

Any comments would be appreciated,
Jacques

[Jacques PierretMember]

Hi Patrick,

Maybe another way of explaining the difference between alternating attention and peripheral awareness is to take the example of sound. You might be walking down a typical downtown city street and just hear the background hum of all the traffic as well as other activities. Meanwhile, as you continue walking, let’s say you are busy thinking about a concern that happened at work yesterday.
In this case, the downtown hum of the city (created by multiple noises) is in your peripheral awareness. Your attention, however, is on the discursive thoughts racing through your mind. Maybe you have trouble recognizing the city noise as situated in peripheral awareness because you don’t seem to be conscious of it. In fact, you hardly even notice the background hum because you are focused on your thoughts. Yet this hum is nonetheless present, even if you don’t consciously put your attention there. Your (peripheral or more expanded) awareness nonetheless hears or is aware of the background noises. Does this not identify the misunderstanding you speak of?
To go on with this, a noisy van goes by, which captures your attention. You then think that you would prefer to be in a quiet place as you hear the ringing of bells of a railroad crossing a few blocks away. Your attention has ‘alternated’ from your thoughts about the office, to the noise of the van, to the thoughts of preferring silence, to the noise of the railroad crossing. All the while your peripheral awareness was still conscious of the general hum of all these and the other city noises combined. But again, you might not be aware of what is going on in your peripheral awareness because your attention is alternating from one thing to the next.

The next time you walk down such a street, see how your attention can move to the sounds coming from one vehicle to another. This attention is focused on one thing at a time. However, if you choose to do so, you will notice that you are both focused on these vehicles moving from moment to alternating moment, as well as more generally aware of the hum of city activity going on in the background.
The same goes for all the senses in other situations.

Hope this helps,
Jacques

[Jacques PierretMember]

Hi Upasaka Tucker,
Thanks for your observations. I have also investigated dullness in a recent meditation, but there was little dullness as I did so. In any case, I’ll look into it further as you describe.
More than goofy thoughts, I have found the apparition of hypnagogia to be a current and infallible flag for dullness. But what about the question of progressive dullness versus subtle dullness in terms of evaluating one’s appropriate stage? If progressive dullness still occurs (though I’m pretty sure it happens mostly because of a lack of sleep), does that mean one should forget about Stage 5 as a major rule and maintain one’s practice in Stage 4? I understand what you mean about moving around the practice of the different stages in one sit. In this question, however, it is more about being accurate in evaluating one’s current stage. I ask as it is a question of knowing when one can move on to the subsequent stage.
I guess I’m still not clear about the question of sleep deprivation. If the lack of sleep is the reason behind one’s progressive dullness, but it is occasional because of this factor, is it still a good idea to practice at Stage 5 when progressive dullness is not a problem?

Thanks again,
Jacques

[Jacques PierretMember]

Hi again,

I’ve moved on to Stage 5. The body scans have been very effective in general but I still seem to sometimes have problems with progressive subtle dullness.
But there is more to this. I have chronic sleep problems. So on some days when I have gotten a not too bad night’s sleep, I am relatively awake and alert in the day. Consequently, I have meditations where dullness is not a problem. But because of poor sleep on other nights, the opposite occurs; progressive subtle dullness is present even if I try the body scan. In the end, I get a little confused as to what Stage is appropriate for me. Is this a problem that has been identified in other meditators, and if so, what guidelines could be suggested?

I also ask these questions in the context of what is said concerning (possibly) going through different stages in one sit. I am referring to the explanations and drawings in An Overview of the Ten Stages: ” Figure 1. Progression through the stages is not linear: Expect to be moving between stages over several sits or even during a single sit.” So let’s take the second drawing relating to shifting from one stage to another during a single sit. If this happens like the drawing illustrates – and the meditator jumps around sporadically from Stage 2 to Stage 5 in a half hour (in a random rather than progressive manner) – then how is the person to adjust? Is it implied that each Stage should be accompanied by the appropriate practice during the short time interval of 10 minutes (as illustrated)? If, for example, I am doing a body scan appropriate to Stage 5 but, after a while, notice there is progressive subtle dullness present, should I therefore assume a shift to the Stage 4 level and apply the prescribed antidotes of that stage? And if the antidote(s) works, resume back to Stage 5 ?
This is a precision not mentioned in the book, so I am wondering what conclusion and resultant course of action to take.
Finally, in relation to the above, I wonder if someone could be more specific as to these sentences: “Don’t get ahead of what is actually happening. On the other hand, once you have overcome the obstacles for a given Stage even temporarily, then you can work with the obstacles for the next Stage.” Am I right to continue with Stage 5 even if there are occasional lapses of dullness that would suggest a Stage 4 level?

Thanks if anyone can find the time to address these issues.

Jacques

[Jacques PierretMember]

Thanks Blake…Your pointers are indeed helpful.

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