[Black GhostMember]

Hi Julian,

Thanks very much for the information – it’s definitely useful. I thought my levels of awareness were ok as I don’t ever really notice attention exclusively on anything but I may be not be noticing that this is happening with these thought distractions. I’ll have to see what happens if I try and notice it during sitting and in daily life too – it will be interesting to understand what’s going on as I seem to spend plenty of time during the day getting lost in these mini day-dreams. In fact it’s something I’ve been wondering about since I was a kid as seemed to spend more time wandering off into thought than being able to pay attention to the lessons in school and I’m sure it happened so much as at the time I had little interest in most of the subjects. I’ll try and see if I can notice what’s happening regarding my awareness for a while – thanks again for taking the time to reply.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 1 month ago by  Black Ghost.

[Black GhostMember]

Hi Julian,

Thanks for the reply. I’ll try and bear in mind the info regarding the chatter and distractions/movements of attention.

The thing I’m still confused about is that whilst it feels like I’m still with the breath when I snap out of the distraction, I have no idea what was happening during the time of the distraction itself – all I can remember is the train of thought itself and nothing else, so I have no idea if it felt like I was still with the breath or anything else, or even if I knew I was still practising during that period – it feels like my consciousness has been consumed by the distraction.

I’ve noticed it happening through the day as well – presumably it’s the same process. I was wondering how it works when it happens when driving – if I suddenly realise I’ve been completely lost in some train of thought for the last few seconds and can’t remember anything else that happened during that time then given I’ve still managed to drive safely, where was all that driving-related information – in attention or awareness and why can’t I remember it?

Thanks.

[Black GhostMember]

Thanks for the reply Blake, I’ll bear it in mind. Regards.

[Black GhostMember]

Hello all, many thanks for the replies, they are all appreciated.

Honestly, I think I may be past the stage where any suggestions are going to make much difference as I’ve consulted various teachers in the past and I’ve read plenty on the suggested antidotes for the various obstacles I’m experiencing, without any making any real difference. This is why I was wondering whether finding a teacher for consistent help may be the recommended option at this stage, if I can find something within budget.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 3 months ago by  Black Ghost.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 3 months ago by  Black Ghost.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 3 months ago by  Black Ghost.

[Black GhostMember]

Hi – thanks. I would say I generally have been unable to find pleasure in meditation when I have looked for it – I generally though spend more focus on trying to accept things as they are though than trying to find any pleasure. I’m sure my focus would be better were I able to find some enjoyment in the experience, which is usually neutral at best. Focus on any part of the body seems to be lost immediately, even more so than other meditation objects – I get the impression that my mind finds no interest what is being observed and therefore wanders off into thinking of anything else.

My peripheral awareness is generally ok but in noticing things like aversion, frustration, expectation, I don’t think I’ve been able to see them with much equanimity unfortunately – it’s somewhat possible for a period but after a few years of the same experience it’s become harder if anything.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 3 months ago by  Black Ghost.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 3 months ago by  Black Ghost.

[Black GhostMember]

Hi, yes I’ve tried other practices, walking, metta, bodyscans, using sound etc. Pretty much the same experience – lack of being able to reach any kind of stability of being able to keep focus on the object for even short periods, as I mentioned usually worse when it comes to body sensations. It’s usually a strange mix of some mental fatigue along with a racing mind.

It’s very unlike the experience of having even a degree of the mind settling into stage 4 territory which I’ve only experienced very rarely. This hasn’t seemed to have improved over time however as I had similar, rare experiences within the first few weeks of sitting, years ago and my typical sit now is similar to how it was back then.

Re the 6 points I have written notes regarding right attitude to practice etc which I regularly go over and I’ve read a huge amount on correct mindset towards sitting but I’m still stuck unfortunately.

[Black GhostMember]

Thank you both – I’ll take a look at your suggestions. Regards.

• This reply was modified 7 years, 11 months ago by  Black Ghost.

[Black GhostMember]

Thanks again for the replies.

Hi Colleen, I’m sorry to hear you’ve had similar issues but pleased to hear the meditation has benefitted you – it’s good to hear. It must have been really tough to put in the effort you describe. At the moment my willpower reserves seem shot so I’m not sure what I’ll be able to do but I’ll have a think about the various suggestions on here and try to give them a go – thanks for the advice.

Hi Doug, I will try a few guided meditations out – i have been meaning to but it’s another thing on my list that’s not been done yet. I have tried some before and had similar struggles with them but maybe if I can try a few more I can find some that I find easier to practice with when I’m struggling with regular practice. I’ll have a look into the types of physical activities you mention – I have done a little Tai Chi so I should look into doing something similar or something along the lines of your suggestions – I’m a bit limited due to some other health issues with regard to some physical activity, including yoga which I used to do, but there should still be a few options available. I’ve recently started some Schema Therapy which may be along the lines of what you suggest? It sounds like it may be although I’ve no idea whether it will be of any help as yet. I’d be interested in looking at the form you mention if you would like to message me on here – many thanks.

I was thinking about the comment from Ivan regarding not being able to generate joy/pleasure. I thought I’d read somewhere early on in the book something along the lines of an instruction to notice and generate any positive sensations/feelings. I’m not sure if it was this section (p49) or another:
‘As you move through these four steps, always remember to relax your body, calm your mind, and deliberately evoke feelings of contentment.It’s like gradually settling into a spa. Continually notice any pleasant sensations contributing to a sense of relaxation, well-being, and overall happiness. As you will learn, relaxation and happiness play an important role in the process of training the mind.’

I’m not sure exactly what ‘deliberately evoke feelings of contentment’ means. If anyone has any tips on this, it would be useful as I generally don’t notice the pleasant sensations mentioned.

Regards.

[Black GhostMember]

Thanks for the replies – I very much appreciate them.

Ivan – the answer to the question, can I allow these feelings to be there without getting involved, is sometimes yes, sometimes no. I can sit with them at times but it seems when I struggle with for example particularly strong rumination, I normally find I haven’t been able to sit with this state of mind and I end up walking away. Also when the symptoms of depression are particularly high, these feelings are often stronger than my ability to practice with them.

As you can probably imagine, I’ve sought advice for these issues over the years so am familiar with the suggestion to allow the difficult feelings be – it’s always useful to be reminded of this however. I suspect that I struggle so much with them, maybe not so much because of the strength of them but more likely that my ability to withstand them is really weak at times. Since I’ve had the various health issues my powers of determination/willpower etc seems very much diminished. I will try and bear your points in mind however and see what happens.

Blake – thanks for the advice, I will read through it again and try it out as well as the chapter re-read. I’ve only recently setup a mindful reminder bell to go off every couple of hours – for some reason I’ve resisted doing this for a long time and haven’t taken to off the cushion mindfulness practice. Due to the sitting struggles it’s often been the case that I haven’t felt up to to facing mindful behaviour through the day as well (I usually resort to distracting behaviour instead) which I know doesn’t help.

I’ve tried the volunteering/Dharma group/exercise routes – I’ve not seen any improvement unfortunately, nor has medication or talking therapy. I know that mindfulness practices help a great deal of people with depression and anxiety issues but I don’t remember reading many accounts of these issues feeling like such a barrier to practicing, which has often been my experience.

Regards.

[Black GhostMember]

Hi Michael, many thanks for your reply.

–Firstly, what is your motivation for all of the hard work you have already put into your meditation practice over the course of 4 full years – what has driven you so far along this path, to begin with? Whatever this is, can you use this as a daily motivator to be on the cushion?–

Initially (and still) it was to help with depression and anxiety. Then I studied a fair bit of Buddhism and also wanted to improve my behaviour and my mind. I still am very interested in both meditation and Buddhism and I’m in no doubt that practice benefits many people but it hasn’t been the case for me – from the start it’s not felt right somehow (not that I know what it ‘should’ be like, if anything). This struggle I’ve had hasn’t been enough to keep a consistent daily practice despite my interest in following the path.

–Secondly, and more difficult, can you let go of the desire for results in your practice – whether it is feeling sensations of the breath or sensations of pleasure. Can you try to sit with simply an objective to diligently follow the practice, whatever stage you are at, disregarding the common desire for achievement, success, results and the feeling of pleasure while sitting? The point here is that if it is an effective practice alone, then when done correctly and systematically, results will follow and there is no need to put the cart (results) before the horse (practice).I have also put a lot of stake in looking for results to my meditation, and like you have been thwarted in my rewards, so I’ve relaxed a lot and simply do it, and it has been a joy to sit again. Ask yourself why you should expect a pleasurable feeling from meditation – just because it happened to someone else? For myself, meditation is about practice, not the results. I like my sit when I look back on it and say that I practiced what I was supposed to.–

I’ve read a lot about expectations and results but I can’t say it makes much difference. If I either found some pleasure in sitting or I could see some progress that would help me to keep on practising but with the absence of both my drive to keep sitting is being outweighed by the difficulties I’m having with the practice.

–Finally, do these feelings of not enjoying the work or not getting the ‘supposed’ results, apply to other areas of your life, or is what you are describing solely related to your meditation practice? If it is similar to other areas of your life (work, relationships, housing, location etc.) then let’s not work only on the meditation component but the larger picture too. If indeed these experiences of lack of positive feedback are only on the cushion then that gives us something to work with here in this forum.–

The feelings are probably similar in other aspects of life, at least with work and relationships. I’m finding it very hard to get anything done – I have the motivation and want to do things but find it very difficult for some reason to get much done and I’m really struggling with my lack of willpower. I’m out of work due to various health issues, I spend most of my time alone.

A note re Ivan’s reply (thanks again) – yes I could keep count of 10 breaths, but the counting itself was the main thing that held my attention due to the lack of physical sensations. After a couple of months my ability to do this declined for some reason and my attention weakened. I think this might be something to do with losing interest in practicing – I usually find it harder and harder as the days go by and notice after I’ve taken a break or starting a different practice that I have a bit more enthusiasm and usually start off with a bit more ability to hold attention but it then fades again as time goes on.

Although some expectation is an issue it seems the biggest hurdle is the uncomfortable feeling I often get when sitting – it’s hard to describe but having no pleasure from sitting and a feeling of a strong kind of boredom/dissatisfaction often feels like I’d rather be doing anything else and it feels almost painful to carry on sitting if that makes any sense. I’ve felt this not all the time, but frequently over the past 4 years.

[Black GhostMember]

–Please describe 1) The precise steps you are doing when you sit down and 2) Your experience of the session as progresses
We need to know the details of what is happening when you are sitting.–

Many thanks for the reply Ivan.
I was doing around 45 mins per day prior to TMI and started off with 3x40min daily sessions when I started TMI – that lasted a couple of months and I started to struggle and practice has been inconsistent since.

I go through through the 4 step transition – my attention wanders a fair bit from the various meditation objects during this period and I don’t find it easy to locate bodily sensations, especially in stages 3 and 4. I then try to hold any sensations around the nose in attention whilst not shutting down PA. I feel so little at the nose that I can’t notice the start/end of a cycle, I just feel the odd vague sensation – it seems my mind gets easily bored of this and my attention is quickly lost.

I haven’t felt able to do much connecting/following because of this. I’ve tried labelling and counting without much luck – I could keep my attention on the counting during the first couple of months but that didn’t last and my attention was mainly on the counting itself due to feeling so little bodily sensations. I’ve tried to notice/generate joy/pleasure but I haven’t managed to do so.

I have always frequently found myself just giving up and cutting sits short as all of the above doesn’t feel right somehow – it feels like I can’t bear to carry on. It’s probably a mixture of frustration, finding no positive qualities in sitting, lack of feeling sensations, lack of being able to keep anything in attention, lack of faith in me being able to practice. All this makes it feel too uncomfortable to continue if that makes any sense.

The problem isn’t just limited to the nose though – with all the various types of practice I’ve done my ability to hold attention on any object has always been very weak and hasn’t improved over time.

I’ve been meaning to add the 6 point prep to the start – I do keep in mind why I’m practising but I’m not sure whether I now believe much will change if I carry on due to 4 years of sitting with very little, if any, change.

Maybe I should add that now and again I get the vibration in the hands and I have a period of mental clarity when my mind calms down and I have a better ability to hold something in attention. The first time I experienced this was soon after starting sitting so I can’t say it’s any sign of progress over time. I’m aware these experiences aren’t the goal of practice though. Having said that, I can see how those kind of positive feelings would be be the kind of thing that would aid motivation to continue practising if they happened regularly but for the vast amount of my sits, they just feel the opposite of this – no positive feelings, very little stability of attention and a struggle. I’m aware one of the aims is to sit with whatever is going on but usually what’s going on seems too difficult to sit with.
I hope that’s enough detail. Thanks.

[Black GhostMember]

And, to have a go at answering my own 1st question from reading the text on p160 – the person sitting with the knee pain highlighted in fig 33 represents peripheral awareness of the knee pain and the image of the knee itself represents the pain becoming a gross distraction.

I’m more than happy to be corrected on any of the above – I’ve read through these sections quite a few times already and am realising there’s lots still to understand :>

[Black GhostMember]

..sorry the last sentence should say figure 35, not 165.

[Black GhostMember]

Hi Colleen, thanks for the reply.

I understand the explanation of the face/heart image but I’m a bit confused about the other images I think.

In Fig 33 I’m unsure what the difference is between the image of the knee itself and the image of the sitting person with the knee pain highlighted.

Then in figures 34 and 35, I wouldn’t have thought the sitting person image represents anything to do with pain? For example, in figure 34, under ‘exclusive focus’ the moments are either images of attention to the breath or images of the sitting person. Reading the text on page 163, it says ‘..stable attention simply means that most of your moments of attention are devoted to the meditation object. As you can see from the illustration, it also includes moments of peripheral awareness”.

So I guess the sitting person must represent moments of peripheral awareness? I hadn’t noticed this before as I was reading up on Dullness on pages 164/165 and figure 165.

[Black GhostMember]

Thanks Mary – it’s interesting to hear how others deal with these things and their practices. When I’ve tried noting previously, I usually find it can bring more attention to some things being noted. With something like tinnitus or constant noise, I think I’d be doing it so often that it puts me more in thinking mode and cause more distraction. With the tinnitus, when it’s louder than usual I really notice it at first, then usually I notice it less as the days go by – I’ll see how it goes just continuing to notice it and let it come and go in awareness/attention and see what happens.

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