[B ArnoldMember]

Hi Alex,

Thank you for the clarification – apologies – I read hastily last night and did not consider the sutta carefully. I will pass this along and follow-up.

Best,
Bobby

[B ArnoldMember]

Hi Alex,

By strange coincidence I was discussing Bhikkhu Analayo’s definition of sati as “bare attention” with another teacher-in-training today, and wondering how that fits into TMI’s translation of sati – and I’ll just say parathethetically that in past conversations, I recall Culadasa is more apt to link sati with awareness rather than attention. My friend, in response, then linked me to this article which features Alan Wallace, who therein links “bare attention” to this word “manasikāra”: https://tricycle.org/magazine/mindful-balance-0/

With regards to manasikāra, I’m not sure how Culadasa would frame it – I’d like to ask him, and probably will – but it seems to be that in order to properly cultivate this quality of bare or appropriate attention, the meditator would need a well trained and responsive awareness as well- which brings us back to this emphasis on balancing both attention and awareness that is so stressed in TMI. This is a clumsy way of saying that I suspect there isn’t a precise term correlate for manasikāra, and yet I don’t think the TMI system has lost anything without such a term.

– Bobby (Teacher In Training)

[B ArnoldMember]

Hi Peter,

Can you elaborate on how you are “noticing the sensations more deeply”? What does this entail?

Also, what do you do differently when you meditate “gently”?

Thanks,

Bobby – Teacher In Training

[B ArnoldMember]

Hey Josh,

Regarding mind settling, all I can tell you is based on experience from my own practice – but I have tended to assume consistent and diligent practice were the most important factors. Over a period of time, your average baseline that you start with might change as a result of applying yourself to the practice diligently.

What frame of mind are you starting practice with? In addition to the four stage transition, you might also include the 6 point preparation (another list!), to properly balance your attitude regarding goals and expectations. Make sure to notice something pleasant in the process as you begin your sit, will also help settle the mind and bring it to the task at hand.

I’m glad I’ve been able to help you – best of luck!

Bobby – DT Teacher in Training

[B ArnoldMember]

Hey Josh,

Regarding timeline for “settling period”, I think it can certainly vary for individuals, but nonetheless it’s not unusual to experience several different stages in the course of a sit. Though I will say candidly that not having greater sensory clarity for the first 20+ minutes of your practice suggests to me that it might be of use to you to engage more in the stage 5 body scan practice. I haven’t done Goenka scans, but my impression is – please correct me if I’m wrong – is that it may differ from TMI body scanning in that it doesn’t place as much emphasis on scope of attention – alternating between small and large body regions, for example. Be sure you note those differences and be mindful of the scope of your attention when engaged with the TMI body scan practice.

I do get the impression from your reports that there is some continuity of attention, and I like that you are also able to detect that quality of imbalance that can occur, where there is perhaps too much attention and not enough awareness – but I suspect that there is perhaps more subtle distractions occurring than you are aware of or able to identify, and suspect that there may be some subtle dullness impacting your sensory clarity. That isn’t to say that you can’t quickly remediate with the right tools – but it will take vigilance to engage with the right tool at the right time.

Once sensory clarity seems better – or even simply after 10 minutes of diligent effort at the body scan practice, try returning to the breath sensations at the nose, and try noticing the parts of the breath again. Notice if there is any improvement in the sense of clarity regarding the parts of the breath.

Ultimately, if you really feel you should be practicing at stage 8, or you want to practice at stage 8, I say go for it. Give yourself a while to become familiar with the practices. I would just advise – be honest with yourself. If you still feel, after spending some time with the stage 8 practices, some confusion or uncertainty with the practices, then reevaluate. Don’t feel that it’s some kind of failure or loss to go back to an earlier stage and work another practice that you feel you have more clarity or certainty with. Ultimately the most effective and efficient way for to you practice will be to work with the optimal stage for your current skill level.

As another DT teacher once said recently, “meditation is a self-correcting vehicle”. Ultimately, reflecting on the feedback from your own practice will be your best teacher.

I hope something of what I have offered here helps! Best of luck with your practice!

Bobby – DT Teacher in Training

• This reply was modified 7 years, 1 month ago by  B Arnold.
• This reply was modified 7 years, 1 month ago by  B Arnold.

[B ArnoldMember]

Hey Josh,

I understand where you are – I too came to TMI from years of experience with other kinds of meditation practice, and I was initially bewildered by the wide array of concepts and terms, unable to really pinpoint where I should be practicing. Be patient and diligent, and you will eventually find greater clarity.

To better help you, I’d be curious to know your experience with a couple of the practices in earlier stages. For example, have you practiced much with the “Following and Connecting”, in stage 3? If so, what was your experience like? Also, I’m curious to know if you worked with the body scan in stage 5, and what that experience was like?

Regarding your question about exclusive attention – I’m curious what you mean by being able to “explore your mind”, even though attention is anchored to the breath. What does this exploring entail? Are you clear which faculty you are using to do this “exploring” – whether it is attention or awareness? If not, I would advise you to go back to at least stage 6 or stage 5 practices and work with the body scanning practices and the “experiencing the whole body with the breath” practice in stage 6. By the end of stage 6, you should have a pretty firm sense of the difference between attention and awareness.

Also, if you are not doing the four step transition, I would highly recommend you start. Begin every sit with it, and you will over time develop a much more clear understanding of the distinction between attention and awareness. Without developing a sense of this distinction, I think it would be pretty difficult to gain a firm sense of whether you had developed exclusive attention or not.

I hope this helps,

Bobby – DT Teacher in Training

• This reply was modified 7 years, 1 month ago by  B Arnold.

[B ArnoldMember]

In addition to those already mentioned (except the hiccups – that’s new to me but it has me curious now), I also feel that I notice more about the world around me, or more specifically, I feel somehow more positively impacted by the world around me in subtle ways that I can’t quite put my finger on.

I will, for example, drive down a road and pass a tree that I have driven by innumerable times before, but suddenly just then notice how beautiful it is. There is also often this “freshness” aspect to seeing familiar places – and people, as if somehow seeing them for the first time. I notice this “fresh perspective” particularly with people I am close to – my family. It feels as if I’m noticing something positive about them that I’d either forgotten or never seen before. It sounds odd to describe it, but this sense of having a new way of looking at the world, a way of looking that feels filled with vibrancy and goodness, is often noticeable. I notice it is particularly vivid after a sit, which is why I’m apt to associate it closely with my practice.

Bobby – DT Teacher in Training

• This reply was modified 7 years, 1 month ago by  B Arnold.

[B ArnoldMember]

Hey Prashant,

> I am assuming the individual concurrent mental processes refers to awareness. Is it same as awareness of the states of mind. What objects does this awareness include? Can it be considered as a sensory field as it includes many items?

I think you are correct but I would place more emphasis on your description of “field” than “objects” to describe the contents of awareness. The job of attention is to provide that distinction and definition – to isolate some particular phenomena from awareness and interact with it as an object.

> Can attention home in to these objects as a meditation object if we choose or intend to do so? If it’s possible then i think it would also be a powerful way to strengthen introspective awareness of the states of the mind.

Yes, in fact that’s a practice in stage 8 referred to as “momentary concentration”. But your sense of the distinction between attention and awareness will continue to develop in the stages prior, especially as you become more skilled at stabilizing attention – simply keeping it still on the object. Otherwise it’s harder to discern the difference between attention/awareness because the clarity you need is obscured by the (at this point) uncontrolled movements of attention.

One more thing I’d like to mention, because it’s on my mind in my own practice – is that there can be a tendency to become overly fixated on attention – primarily, I think, because it seems to be under our direct control, and as such we want to place all of our efforts and focus on manipulating attention in some way to somehow make progress. But awareness is equally important.

I would suggest that you always doing the four step transition as you start your practice, if you are not now. As the book says in Stage One, “every step in the transition provides an opportunity to learn to distinguish between attention and awareness”. It will also help you get in the habit of remembering to invoke an intention not only to keep attention on your meditation object (the breath), but to also simultaneously keep a strong sense of awareness – awareness of body, awareness of sound, awareness of your present context – sitting still and watching the breath. This is not something most of us are used to doing – as Culadasa says, most of us have an “awareness deficit syndrome”. If you start cultivating your sense of awareness now though, it will pay dividends as you progress.

I hope this helps!

Bobby
DT Teacher in Training

[B ArnoldMember]

Prashant,

If I may interject – I get the sense from your wording that you are imagining that attention should be able to turn introspectively and look at the mind as a singular “thing” that “has a state” – but these are just concepts that we build to make sense of our experience, *after the fact of having “looked”*. In a sense, I think of this as attempting to pull the cart before the horse 🙂

Prior to the moment of introspection, the concept of “my state of mind” doesn’t really exist as *a thing*, therefore, there is no “state”, or singular object, that attention can hone in on to check the desired state, independent of what is already available in awareness, or what can at least be conceptually derived from awareness.

What does exist prior to the moment of introspection? Lots of individual concurrent mental processes! There is no single “thing” at this point for attention to derive the state of mind from. Given that we know that attention’s specialty is isolating and honing in on singular objects, then it starts to make a little more sense why attention would not be able to gather a snapshot of the mind without using awareness at this point.

Here’s another way to think about it – without awareness, what would be the alternative? Attention would have to examine each process and then build some conceptual summary of how the individual component or process related to other components or processes. For this to be efficient, it would have to analyze with some degree of concurrency or parallel processing, and perhaps also not scrutinizing for detail, but gathering a kind of “lossy” impression instead … but at this point we’ve already started creating something that sounds a lot more like awareness that attention!

Anyways, this is my understanding – hope this adds or clarifies something for you!

– Bobby (DT Teacher-In-Training)

[B ArnoldMember]

Hey Adam,

Thanks for the response. I experimented with the witness practice a little bit but I’m not entirely sure I am grasping it. I’m not terribly confident I’m finding the still point.

I have a very vivid and clear sense of various objects arising and passing in awareness, and occasionally I’ll consider – “what here is not changing?”. And there is this sense, in contrast, of an observer, or a quality of “observing”, that is watching this dynamic field of changing objects that is unaffected by them, the activity of pure knowing in and of itself – I assume this is the still point?

I believe the task then is to let attention rest on this still point, and inquire as to the nature of it. When I do this, a sense of expectation arises, as if I’m waiting for something to happen. I would assume that is a hindrance of sorts (craving maybe?). Does one then assert more emphasis on keeping attention at the still point or does one put more energy in the sense of inquiry?

Best,
Bobby

[B ArnoldMember]

Thank you Judith – thanks makes a lot of sense.

[B ArnoldMember]

Oh, one last thought: Judith, I have also experienced very sudden bursts of crying in my sits for the past month or two.

The first time it occurred it was completely by surprise, I had no emotional build-up or forewarning at all. At other times, it has felt like an energetic sensation that moves up the abdomen, and by the time it reaches my head it is recognized as a kind of sadness that sometimes is overwhelming enough to become crying. Sometimes it just bubbles up to become a knot in my throat that eventually dissolves.

Afterwards, there tends to be a greater sense of ease and relaxation, even happiness. I have been viewing these events as “purifications” but maybe they are also piti related?

[B ArnoldMember]

Thank you Judith & Matthew for your thoughtful replies.

I am familiar with Leigh Brasington’s book, “Right Concentration”. In fact, I *think* I’ve had some success with the first two jhanas – at least, they seem accessible. I will continue to work with these practices – it hadn’t occurred to me that they might in fact help calm piti. There is a kind of emotional feeling of gladness that arises, and if I attend to that rather than the more physical sensations, it seems to help increase the feeling of “gladness” and minimize the more vibratory, energetic and agitating aspect. I’ve also noticed that the agitating piti doesn’t arise nearly so much with metta practice.

Also, Matthew, I will keep an eye out for grasping. That very well may be what is happening. Certain forms of piti that I experience feel very good, and I wonder if indulging in the pleasure of those feelings causes some aggravation. It certainly seems likely that where there is sensual enjoyment, there is also grasping…and so I will look for that!

Also, Judith thanks for the soundcloud link, I will listen closely to this today!

Best wishes to you both,

Bobby

[B ArnoldMember]

KIm,

Are you sure you are still at stage 4? Do you still experience gross distractions/dullness ( though I realize the distractions question may be hard to answer, since the piti related phenomena can be so distracting!) Can you discern long breaths from short breaths?

Best,

Bobby (not a teacher)

[B ArnoldMember]

How stable is the light nimitta? Have you experimented with the luminous jhana exercises in stage 8?

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