The 10 Stages of Meditation – Stage 5 question

[John MasseyMember]

Hi

Another question if anybody can help…

At the end of the instructions for stage 5 in Progressive Stages of Meditation in Plain English Culadasa says “And so how does one know when one has mastered this stage of practice? This stage is an exception to the general rule that mastery of one stage is the prerequisite for mastery of the stage that follows. IN FACT, IF ONE FALLS INTO THE TRAP OF SUBTLE DULLNESS, MASTERY OF THIS STAGE MIGHT BE SKIPPED ALTOGETHER”

IN FACT, IF ONE FALLS INTO THE TRAP OF SUBTLE DULLNESS, MASTERY OF THIS STAGE MIGHT BE SKIPPED ALTOGETHER”…. Do we have a choice but to initially fall into the trap of subtle dullness as we shut down to external stimulus? and what is meant by MASTERY OF THIS STAGE MIGHT BE SKIPPED ALTOGETHER?

Thanks in advance

John

[Jordan HillMember]

Hi John-

My understanding is that when Culadasa talks about “falling into the trap of subtle dullness,” he does not mean the inevitable wrangle with subtle dullness that you described when you mentioned dealing with it “as we shut down to external stimulus.” That, as you say, is inevitable, and it is not a ‘problem’ when done consciously according to the stages (i.e. making a point of WORKING WITH and overcoming subtle dullness at stage 5). What he’s referring to is when someone doesn’t recognize the presence/dangers of subtle dullness and falls into a trap where they mistake meditation sessions that are very stable but filled with subtle dullness as more advanced than they are. The stability from stable subtle dullness can fool one into thinking they have attained something like stage 6 or 7, and the pleasure from subtle dullness could be mistaken for the arising of piti. As Culadasa points out, this is a dead end from the perspective of Samatah-Vipassana practice, for without the overcoming of subtle dullness and increase in introspective awareness, there’s not much further the mind will be able to go when it comes to insight (and concentration, I imagine).

What he talks about “mastery of this stage might be skipped altogehter,” I believe he means that someone can still progress in developing stability of attention by overcoming subtle distractions (so move into stage 6 territory and beyond) without having overcome subtle dullness, even if this would ultimately prove to be a dead end, as described above.

I hope that makes sense! It’s approaching bed time and I’m mildly sleep deprived due to my 8 month old daughter, so do let me know if anything is unclear (or incorrect :).

-Jordan

[John MasseyMember]

Hi Jordan,

My apologies for not getting back sooner, the last week has been really busy and iv just not had the time to sit and type a reply.

Thanks for the detailed response it is most kind of you and it most definitely makes sense. I hope the sleeping pattern has improved a little and you are feeling a little less sleep deprived.

I interpreted what Culadasa said in the same manner as you but was unsure if my interpretaion was correct as it’s difficult to know anything for certain when you are working with these stages on your own as there is no external reference point like a fellow meditator or teacher to check back with (until I found this forum that is).

I am finding subtle dullness a toughie to totally and consistently get rid of at the moment. I use the breath/bodyscan technique daily as an accompaniment to the breath practice to try and overcome the problem and i really like it but sometimes I can feel subtle dullness creeping into the body scan too and dampening the sensations in that activity as well. Hopefully its just part of learning the skill and as I proceed further hopefully it will get better but I can see how people do get stuck at this point as dullness of both types can feel like you are carrying a ton of lead on your back at times during practice.

Thanks again Jordan, really appreciate your reply!

Cheers
John

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