Is Doing Nothing potentially a problem before Stage 7?

[Tord HelsingengMember]

Hi!

I have been working within Shinzen Young’s Basic Mindfulness system for a good while, and it has been tremendously helpful for me.
Following Shinzen’s advice, I have attended at least one week long retreat each year, along with several 1-3 day retreats.

Almost from the start I have usually entered what I understand is jhana-territory after two or three days during these retreats.
However, my focus was primarily on the equanimity part of the practice, and I have not pursued a more concentration-intensive approach until now.

So what I would typically do when I entered deep samadhi and the signs of the unification process appeared, would be to either: Do Nothing, Practice Metta or work with evening out kinks in the somatic experience, which would spontaneously take me to Breathing with the whole Body. So I guess I would be going between Stages Four, Five, Six and Seven.

I was never able to reach stages Six and Seven without going to retereats before working with Culadasa’s book. The point about subtle dullness seems to be a key, and also the focus on developing a good relationship between attention and peripheral awareness. And now I find myself moving between Stage Two and Stage Six (perhaps Seven?) in my daily sits.

So my question is this – is it a potential problem in your view to practice Doing Nothing (and I guess other kinds of choiceless awareness) before working with Stage Seven? Can it trick my mind into accepting and cultivating subtle dullness?

Warmly,
Tord

• This topic was modified 8 years, 1 month ago by  Tord Helsingeng.
• This topic was modified 8 years, 1 month ago by  Tord Helsingeng.

[Rene MirandaMember]

Hello Tord,

I see you are an experienced and dedicated meditator. It also sounds like Culadasa’s method is taking you to new places and deepening your meditation experience.

Yes, increasing the total power of consciousness by stabilizing attention while simultaneously cultivating strong peripheral awareness takes your mind to deeper states of samatha or stillness. That is why you are experiencing stage 6 and 7 in your meditation practice outside of retreat. You have, using Culadasa’s method as outlined in the book, increased the total conscious power or your mind by stabilizing attention and increasing peripheral awareness.

Subtle dullness is easy to enjoy and stay in because it feels pleasant. Yes, you can “trick” your mind into becoming comfortable there.

I am not familiar with the term “Doing Nothing.” I’ll tell what I think you mean and address this from my perspective. You can respond to let me know if I’m on target or not. What I think you mean by Doing Nothing is allowing the mind to observe what is arising as it arises. In other words, whatever thought, emotion, sensation, sound that comes into awareness is fair game for attention to go to. By doing nothing I assume you mean noticing without engaging with or embellishing what it is that arises in consciousness. This is a kind of choiceless awareness practice and very useful when the mind is stable enough. That is why Culadasa brings these kinds of practices in at stage 7. At that point attention is sufficiently stable and awareness is sufficiently strong to observe without manipulating whatever comes up. When we use this type of practice at a time when our minds are not sufficiently stable and aware, we quickly find the mind hijacked by a thought into mind wandering or into a dreamy kind of subtle dulllness. Persistent mind wandering will feel frustrating. Persistent subtle dullness can feel pleasant while no progress is made.

My suggestions. When you reach the state of samadhi you mentioned, try these practices:
When you want to practice exploring somatic experiences, try the body scan practice as outlined in the book. it will brighten your mind, eliminating subtle dullness. This is a very powerful practice for further increasing the conscious power of your mind. And it does lead, quite naturally, to experiencing the whole body with the breath.
When you find you are able to stay with the meditation object with little or no subtle distraction for 5 minutes or more, try the stage seven practices you will find under ” investigation of Mental Objects.” There are three kinds of practices there that are super powerful. They will naturally lead you to a state of effortlessness in time.

Personal notes: I found the body scan practice was like rocket fuel for my practice. Elimination of subtle dullness in the presence of stable attention is a bit like waking up from a dream. Experiencing the whole body with the breath becomes a flow state and leads to light jhana practice. That naturally leads to stage seven where stability can be cultivated because awareness is stronger. At some point effortlessness arises with the beauty of mental and physical pliancy. I practiced meditation for years before meeting Culadasa. Once I diligently (deliberately and gently) applied his method, my practice took off and flowered.

My best to you! I am so glad you wrote!

Peace,
René

[Tord HelsingengMember]

Hi René,

Thank you for your informative answer!

I am sorry that I was a bit unclear about what I mean by Doing Nothing. The definition of this technique that Shinzen uses is “Let whatever happens happen, but as soon as you are aware of an intention to control your attention, drop that intention.” So, yes, it’s one way to practice choiceless awareness. When there is an element of focus and concentration in the practice, however, we call it Focus On Everything in the Basic Mindfulness system. That is also a way to interpret choiceless awareness. There are possibly others too in other approaches.

As I am still exploring the “map” and terminology suggested by Culadasa, I have decided to put my effort into master stage four. This seems to be my baseline stage, although I can dip into stage three if I’m tired. Tt’s also quite possible that I levitate towards stage five (or higher?), but since Culadasa advices that its extremely important to develop metacognitive introspective awareness, I will make sure that I am strengthening this part. So in a 60 minute sit, I am devoting at least 30 minutes to stage four practice (if I am not forced to practice stage three).

However, what I am finding is that I am not going so deep into samadhi than what I would do practicing Shinzen’s method. In Basic Mindfulness, breath is often not the primary object, there is rather a diverse range of focusing options and ways of practice – however not as “vertically” oriented as Culadasa’s method. I am not sure what my experience signifies, but I think it’s interesting. Perhaps it’s a bit like when sports people reinvent their technique and it takes time to get back into the groove. One could perhaps argue that the flow state described under jhanas is also relevant at lower stages, although not so intensely honed (this feeling of a state that “feeds” upon itself)?

All the best!

[Blake BartonKeymaster]

Hi Tord,

I am familiar with Shinzen’s technique, and I have sat three retreats with him. I am curious to learn more about your statement “I am not going so deep into samadhi than what I would practicing Shinzen’s medthod.” What factors are you using to judge the depth of your samadhi? Different practices tend to have different effects on different people, and I agree that that there is a learning curve with any new practice.

Thanks,

Blake – Dharma Treaasure Teacher in Training

[Rene MirandaMember]

Tord,

What I imagine is happening is that you are trying new exercises to strengthen the power of conscious awareness. Since they are new, there is a learning curve. However, the exercises are valuable tools you will always have at your disposal.

I also recommend you try the body scan whenever you find yourself at stage 4 and gross distractions are at bay for a few minutes. That practice is powerful to remove all subtle dullness. When you experience the sharp clarity of a mind free from even subtle dullness you may see that the deep samadhi you are familiar with was not as clear as it could have been. Then you can practice Shinzen’s meditations with that kind of mind. If you find that is not the case then Shinzen’s practices are taking you to a deeper place where toward’s effortlessness. If that’s the case, you might find stage 8 practices useful. It’s good to experiment. That is how you know your mind. Curiosity is a wonderful way to approach meditation.

You mentioned the linearity or vertical nature of Culadasa’s approach. Yes, it is necessarily outlined that way. and the trajectory of our practice over time does generally go in that way. However, this is not a linear process. We take different minds to the cushion each time. Having tools to work with whatever is coming up is one of the beautiful things about Culadasa’s teachings. He gives us lots of tools. Over time one knows which tool to pull out for any mental state.

Best to you. I would love to hear how things go after you play around a while.

[Tord HelsingengMember]

Hi Blake and René,

Blake, thank you for asking. Well, using the Shinzen lingo, the factors would be 1) a majority of silence in talk space and peace in body space 2) a kind of concentration that effortlessly “glues itself” to the chosen object and feeds upon itself 3) a sense that all experience is created of flow/anicca on one hand and emptiness/fullness on the other.

I think one reason that it has been easier for me using Shinzen’s method, is that I have worked a lot with quite different approaches than the early stages of shamatha vipassana. For instance Doing Nothing, working directly with not-knowing mind (which in a sense is kin to choiceless awareness), and also working directly with vanishings. Furthermore, I have been switching techniques a lot during a sit (algorithmic approach).

However, I am very pleased with the development using Culadasa’s method. One important reason for studying this method is to hone my concentration skills, and I do already notice the fruits from this practice. It has been fun to travel the ladder in some sits, steadily eliminating the different kinds of distractions and noticing the increased clarity and mindfulness.

René, thank you for your suggestion. I am doing body scans regularly now and they are really wonderful. I noticed yesterday when doing a strong determination sit how the consciousness of the full body kept the pain at bay, in effect reducing it to subtle distraction. And then, when moving the focus to the nose, the pain increased to a gross distraction. I switched between the two and it was very tangible. It could have been some kind of placebo or power of expectation phenomenon, but nevertheless interesting.

Thanks again to both of you to offer this service. It’s very helpful. Wishing you all the best!

• This reply was modified 8 years, 1 month ago by  Tord Helsingeng.

[Blake BartonKeymaster]

Hi Tord,

It sounds like you are experiencing a deep level of samadhi with Shinzen’s technique, and I think you will be able to experience the same deep level using Culadasa’s technique once you master the practices. Going back to your original question, I think your mental skills are developed enough to productively practice the “Do Nothing” practice. If you maintain introspective awareness while doing this practice you should know how much subtle dullness is present.

Gook luck with your practice and thanks for sharing your experiences with us.

Blake – Dharma Treasure Teacher in Training

[Tord HelsingengMember]

Thank you Blake, yes this new awareness of subtle dullness is very useful! I think it’s actually “against the rules” for Do Nothing to try to maintain anything, but I get your point. As long as I keep being aware of subtle dullness in my other practice, I would expect it to seep into the subconscious habits so that it is automatically corrected for when being choiceless. It will be interesting to see how the practice unfolds 🙂

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